Comair Pilots Approve The Loa

[737 Pylt]

Yeah, we should improve our state of affairs. You left us no choice but to undercut you and take away your prized -170s, or see you take our airplanes away. Thanks for starting a US Air style race to the bottom.

And no, I'm not crying.

Not to worry IFFF:
Surplus will be along shortly to explain how CMR is the top notch regional setting the industry standard and that others, including ASA, can only learn from what they are doing!
737

 

[FDJ2]

Sad but true. And, the ASA guys initially refused to believe us when we wondered why the Comair guys wouldn't help our furloughs or at least say something in public supporting them.

I don't think the ASA guys should be surprised at having the CMR pilots sell out for growth and stab the ASA pilots in the back just when they most needed their support, particularly after the CMR pilots stabbed furloughed ALPA pilots in the back. The CMR pilots are great at asking for and getting support from their fellow ALPA pilots while they're locked in negotiations, just don't ever expect the CMR pilots to reciprocate.


Most just agreed that the "10 Commandments" of Comair could never be broken. But, the ASA pilots helped out our furloughs and offered them a job without seniority resignation. Just that gesture helped. Comair said NO. (until later when they wanted new 70 seaters and were forced to offer help) I can't wait for the day when our furloughs are all back and we hire the first of many ASA pilots........ (then CHQ guys....)

I agree, the ASA and CHQ pilots stepped up to the plate, while the CMR pilots slammed the door in the face of furloughed pilots. It's a small industry, with a long memory.

 

[ifly4food]

Doh,

It's always been like this at Comair. Everyone else helps them from time to time or supports them, and then when someone else needs help or support, they get the door slammed in their face. I have said it time and time again on this board that all the Comair pilots had to do was show a little support for our suffering furloughed pilots. Instead, all I ever saw was "this rule has been here forever, this rule cannot be changed because it is in our ops booklet.... never a "sorry guys, we will try to see what we can do for them, maybe talk to our management." Nope, and then they say "we don't make the rules..." The ASA people did not protest or give any phony lines (we all know Lawson wanted something in return), they offered help when their sister airline could not. Most of the ASA pilots weren't bothered by furloughed pilots joining them from the bottom ranks---not affecting them. But the Comair guys worried how that might affect later newhires. Then, they blamed it on training costs, which really came out of Delta's pockets. A lot of us could not understand why they as a group would not oppose this and actually say something other than "this is part of the Comair ten commandments, thou shalt not break these rules...." The ASA and CHQ guys seemed to welcome our furloughs, or at least tolerate them and understand that they were in a time of need. Just like you were during your strike. Why shouldn't that be rewarded someday? I think they should be first in line someday when we hire again. That doesn't mean you guys can't get in line.

Actually, General, not to accidentally inject facts into this debate, but the ASA pilots and ASA MEC had no say in hiring Delta furloughees. Management came to our MEC and said "We're going to do this" and the MEC said "Uh... ok".

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

That may be true but, I heard of NO one who badmouthed the hiring of the Delta guys. I am glad of that.

 

[ifly4food]

That may be true but, I heard of NO one who badmouthed the hiring of the Delta guys. I am glad of that.

That's true. And I'm also glad.

My point is that I'm tired of hearing Delta pilots beat Comair pilots over the head with this supposed "decision we made" to hire thier furloughs. Even if I'm disappointed in the Comair pilots right now... ok, disgusted... I hate to see this petty class warfare going on about who's blackballed, and who's denied the jumpset, ad nauseaum.

 

[doh]

No, actually the Gen makes a good point. There was entirely to much glee in our ranks at the misfortune of Delta's furloughs. And I should have been more publicly vocal about that. My sim partner from new hire was one of the first on the street and a good friend is going to be one of the last recalls. I stand corrected and chastised. All I can say now is I hope they get back soonest.

 

[Ace McCoy]

SkyWest, Mesa, Chautauqua and Mesaba all signed contracts significantly below Comair's to get growth, especialy in 70 and 90 seat AC.

Dude, please don't bring Mesaba into this one. More than half our fleet is turboprops. Comparing us to you is apples and oranges.

 

[General Lee]

No, actually the Gen makes a good point. There was entirely to much glee in our ranks at the misfortune of Delta's furloughs. And I should have been more publicly vocal about that. My sim partner from new hire was one of the first on the street and a good friend is going to be one of the last recalls. I stand corrected and chastised. All I can say now is I hope they get back soonest.

Doh,

That is really nice of you. I wasn't furloughed, but many of my friends were, and I think they would have been happy with just an offer of something. I think we should award nice behavior, and ASA and CHQ offered some help. We first have ot get our furloughs back on line, and after that we will see how it goes. Your post was the first I have seen that looked at the really misfortune here, our furloughs. Thank you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

And another ignorant fool checks in...........

This from the tribal leader of "village idiots!"

 

[P38JLightning]

definition of "helped"

>>>>ASA and CHQ shouldn't be rewarded for helping our furloughs? Is that what you are saying? Yes or no? They did help them. I don't know if there are any current furloughs at Comair. I wouldn't have gone---I would have gone to CHQ or ASA.


No, I'm saying they shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, which is what both rank and files did. You act like they had this big stand off with management, demanded and won that for the Delta furloughs. Nothing culd be further from the truth (except to think the Comair rank and file tried to stop them from coming, like you seem to suggest).

There is nothing to reward, that is unless you want to give ASA and CHQ management preferential hiring into Delta management jobs. If that's what you're saying then I guess I conceed you have a valid point.

As for "doing the right thing" goes, many airlines interviewed and hired Comair pilots during our strike. That was a big morale boost too, and took some of the sting out of the thought of possibly being unemployed for a very long time. ASA and Delta, on the other hand, would not. Delta even cancelled scheduled interviews and never rescheduled them and likely never will. What about that "time of need"?

I guess you could answer you supported us in spirit, walked in some resumes anyway and really argued their case despite company policy, and wrote checks to help (besides the mandatory assessment of course) well guess what, that's what many Comair guys have done for your furloughs.

So which is better, being a CHQ pilot who never lifted a finger to help a DAL furlough, or a Comair pilot who spent a significant ammount of time (and money) helping them?

Do you think you are going to punnish JC/MEC with this? The RJDC? Both entities have always hated to see a Comair pilot junior to them get hired at Delta ahead of them anyway, so they embrace your blackball with open arms.

All I'm saying is you might want to grab a slightly more narrow brush while you're busy painting the picture of your Delta world view.

 

[General Lee]

>>>>ASA and CHQ shouldn't be rewarded for helping our furloughs? Is that what you are saying? Yes or no? They did help them. I don't know if there are any current furloughs at Comair. I wouldn't have gone---I would have gone to CHQ or ASA.


No, I'm saying they shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, which is what both rank and files did. You act like they had this big stand off with management, demanded and won that for the Delta furloughs. Nothing culd be further from the truth (except to think the Comair rank and file tried to stop them from coming, like you seem to suggest).

There is nothing to reward, that is unless you want to give ASA and CHQ management preferential hiring into Delta management jobs. If that's what you're saying then I guess I conceed you have a valid point.

As for "doing the right thing" goes, many airlines interviewed and hired Comair pilots during our strike. That was a big morale boost too, and took some of the sting out of the thought of possibly being unemployed for a very long time. ASA and Delta, on the other hand, would not. Delta even cancelled scheduled interviews and never rescheduled them and likely never will. What about that "time of need"?

I guess you could answer you supported us in spirit, walked in some resumes anyway and really argued their case despite company policy, and wrote checks to help (besides the mandatory assessment of course) well guess what, that's what many Comair guys have done for your furloughs.

So which is better, being a CHQ pilot who never lifted a finger to help a DAL furlough, or a Comair pilot who spent a significant ammount of time (and money) helping them?

Do you think you are going to punnish JC/MEC with this? The RJDC? Both entities have always hated to see a Comair pilot junior to them get hired at Delta ahead of them anyway, so they embrace your blackball with open arms.

All I'm saying is you might want to grab a slightly more narrow brush while you're busy painting the picture of your Delta world view.

I am glad you think there will never be a reward:


"There is nothing to reward, that is unless you want to give ASA and CHQ management preferential hiring into Delta management jobs. If that's what you're saying then I guess I conceed you have a valid point."


I think eventually, after our furloughs come back, we will hire again. If we do, we will probably look towards those who supported our guys in need. Comair did NOT. I believe ASA and CHQ will be rewarded, and that will be supported by every rank and file pilot we have. Hey, I won't be an interviewer, but I will with others call and speak to them directly. We'll see what happens.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[embraerdriver]

Couldn't resist............here goes!!


Nice Job almighty comair jerkoffs...........

whose lowering the bar now?


You made your bed now lay in it

pinheads.............

 

[moscowcfi]

That was a truly dumb post. Even at the conclusion of this freeze we're going to be paid more than just about everybody in this industry. This is like France complaining that the US has a weak military.

Couldn't resist............here goes!!


Nice Job almighty comair jerkoffs...........

whose lowering the bar now?


You made your bed now lay in it

pinheads.............

 

[kc81900]

Thanks for nothing, Comair pilots. Welcome to the ranks of MESA.

Comair pilots are not here to do your dirty work. Take off the skirt put on a pair of pants and be a man and take control of your own future. Quit looking for others to take on the fight for you.

 

[kc81900]

Couldn't resist............here goes!!


Nice Job almighty comair jerkoffs...........

whose lowering the bar now?


You made your bed now lay in it

pinheads.............

Does this make you feel better about the lack of fight your pilot group has had.

Comair lowered the bar but it is still out of your reach. Sucks being short doesn't it.

 

[kc81900]

I am glad you think there will never be a reward:


"There is nothing to reward, that is unless you want to give ASA and CHQ management preferential hiring into Delta management jobs. If that's what you're saying then I guess I conceed you have a valid point."


I think eventually, after our furloughs come back, we will hire again. If we do, we will probably look towards those who supported our guys in need. Comair did NOT. I believe ASA and CHQ will be rewarded, and that will be supported by every rank and file pilot we have. Hey, I won't be an interviewer, but I will with others call and speak to them directly. We'll see what happens.




Bye Bye--General Lee

I am not sure who is lower management with their scare tactics of do what we say or we will take away planes and flying or our union brothers that say do what we say or we will never hire your pilots. A thug is a thug no matter if he sits in a corporate office or the MEC office.

 

[MetroSheriff]

That was a truly dumb post. Even at the conclusion of this freeze we're going to be paid more than just about everybody in this industry. This is like France complaining that the US has a weak military.

Only by virtue of signing a contract before the bottom fell out of the industry. Which, by looking at your profile, you were not around for.

 

[P38JLightning]

really?

Only by virtue of signing a contract before the bottom fell out of the industry. Which, by looking at your profile, you were not around for.

So its OKAY for everyone else after 9/11 to ink an inferior contract, but Comair is expected to remain where they were because we signed a "pre 9/11" contract?

So the market is so bad that you can't sign a Comair plus or even Comair break even contract, but the market is at the same time more than good enough to maintain the Comair contract at Comair only? Don't think that's how it works.

You can't have it both ways. Either Comair pilots got scared and gave some up, themselves doing what almost every other regional piot group since then has done, or Comair pilots were forced to recognise market forces and settle for a "Comair minus" contract, just like most all other regional carriers.

So, which is it? You could argue that we got scared because of market forces (and the behavior of every other pilot group) and lowered an otherwise sustainable benchmark, but in doing so you will have admitted that the numerous other carriers who have bargained after us also settled for less than was sustainable. That's what I think happened.

But you can't scream about Comair doing what every other regional out there has done, for the exact same reasons.

Take the speeding analogy. Comair is doing 65 in a 55. Everyone is pulling us over and giving us tickets. Although its questionable, even bogus, to get a ticket for such a minor excess in speed, we know we are guilty and accept the fine. Others have been doing 95 on the same road for years, at night in the rain running red lights. We have complained about that and tried to get more patrols of that road. Now we are caught breaking the law and all the other speeders driving by are taking delite in the irony of it all. Fine, we did the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. But so have you been doing the wrong thing, actually a lot worse, for a lot longer. See you in traffic court.

 

[CMRoutlaw]

I am glad you think there will never be a reward:


"There is nothing to reward, that is unless you want to give ASA and CHQ management preferential hiring into Delta management jobs. If that's what you're saying then I guess I conceed you have a valid point."


I think eventually, after our furloughs come back, we will hire again. If we do, we will probably look towards those who supported our guys in need. Comair did NOT. I believe ASA and CHQ will be rewarded, and that will be supported by every rank and file pilot we have. Hey, I won't be an interviewer, but I will with others call and speak to them directly. We'll see what happens.



Bye Bye--General Lee

Geez General, are you ever going to drop this? We can't win, can we? I remember you moaning and groaning several months ago about how the Comair pilots should have to take a pay cut since everybody else at Delta has. Now we take a step in that direction and you jump on the ASA/bash Comair bandwagon reminding us of your super secret blackball powers when Delta resumes hiriing in the year 2020.

I thought we should have offered to hire Delta pilots way back when and I was embarassed at the way some of our guys were talking but its all ancient history to me. So go ahead and tell us about your preferential hiring for your buddies at ASA and CHQ...I can assure you that for every guy like you on the hiring board at Delta, there are ten guys who care more about their squadron buddies. There's a long list of C-5 and F-18 drivers waiting.

Why don't you get a life instead of spending your days roaming the regional boards reminding everyone you're a mainline pilot, just to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic.

 

[737 Pylt]

Why don't you get a life instead of spending your days roaming the regional boards reminding everyone you're a mainline pilot, just to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic.

Pot meet kettle!
737

 

[Crossky]

>>>>Why anyone would give up wages when your company is making plenty of money is beyond me.
Kingairer,

SkyWest, Mesa, Chautauqua and Mesaba all signed contracts significantly below Comair's to get growth, especialy in 70 and 90 seat AC. Recently Air Whisky and ACA (back when they were bidding on UAL flying before they lost it) both took reductions on their current book pay rates even though at the time they were both profitable.

QUOTE]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but ACA pilots didn't take concessions, that's why UAL kicked them out of the nest. The prime motivator for us Wisconsin pilots was to keep our jobs (the first time not the latest - and there's no chance of concessions this time - I think UAL's gonna flush us soon). Don't bust me, I was on probation. Our contract had expired and UAL was taking bids from the bottom feeders. Delta's not in BK nor about to enter it, things would be different then wouldn't they?

This isn't flamebait, but from the postings of you egohead Comairees the arrogance of your pilot group doesn't match the size of your airplanes. I totally respect you for standing firm and walking for 89 days and all but things are different now.

Peace.

 

[flaps30]

yep

we know things are different, at least 60.1% of us.

 

[hockeypilot44]

comair is making money. the only airlines that i know of that took paycuts are the majors, and that is because they are losing billions. why take a pay cut when you're company can make money paying you the current rate?

 

[Traderd]

comair is making money. the only airlines that i know of that took paycuts are the majors, and that is because they are losing billions. why take a pay cut when you're company can make money paying you the current rate?

Just curious on this one as I have seen a difference of opinion on determining Comair's profitability. I have always thought Comair to be a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. Does Comair publish independent financials? If not, does anyone know how one would determine their profitability or lack thereof?



Thanks

 

[~~~^~~~]

Traderd:

We do not know for sure, but anecdotal evidence leaks out of management and numbers on file with the DOT's Bureau of Transportation Statistics are often pointed to as indicators of Comair's profitability.

Codeshare contracts are very confidential. It is believed that most "regionals" were ( and are ) under fee for departure arrangements. These fee for departure deals pay a set amount from the mainline carrier, plus bonus money for performance. The mainline carriers have watched revenues erode, while the contract remains a relatively fixed number. At the same time, the regional operators have watched costs go up, while their revenues remained constant.

Fee for departure is one reason why completion factor is pushed so hard at regional airlines. The regional gets paid regardless of the load factor.

The decreasing revenue and increasing costs mean that the days of fee for departure are numbered. We will likely see the return of some risk sharing between codeshare partners meaning that the regional will want to drop unprofitable routes. The more fuel goes up, the fewer markets will support RJ flights.

We might even see a return to turboprop service on popular, but low revenue, routes. It is hard to say because people, especially business travellers, are deciding to drive on shorter routes rather than hassle with security and the uncertainties of regional airline travel.

So, to answer your question, it is believed Comair is very profitable at the moment, but that Delta may be losing money on the deal. It is also thought that Delta is going to make significant changes to the current method of compensating divisions going forward.

~~~^~~~

 

[Traderd]

Thanks for the info ~~~^~~~. I am somewhat familar with FFD arrangements and such, but thought maybe someone had a definitive method of determining the actual profitability of organizations such as Comair. I can see how the information could be extrapolated from published data so the assumption of profitability is as likely a fair one as not.


Thanks again. Your handle? Do you actually pronounce that as a word or is it ala Prince; The pilot formerly known as ?????.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thanks again. Your handle? Do you actually pronounce that as a word or is it ala Prince; The pilot formerly known as ?????.

It is a Jimmy Buffett reference about the Sharks that can swim on the land!

Fins to the right .... ~~~^~~~

 

[BluDevAv8r]

comair is making money. the only airlines that i know of that took paycuts are the majors, and that is because they are losing billions. why take a pay cut when you're company can make money paying you the current rate?

1. Allegheny
2. Piedmont
3. Air Wisconsin
4. ACA

 

[N813CA]

BluDevAv8r vbmenu_register("postmenu_547159", true);

And many more. They all did it after Sept 11. Comair didn't do it then. Know we have finally done what everyone else has done. It had to be done.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It had to be done.

Really, why?

With no economic analysis, how would you know?