Comair news and upgrade

[V-1]

Back in those days, pilots hired at the majors with that amount of experience were sitting sideways watching gauges....not even talking on radios.

Back in the metro days, these guys were shuttling in and out of CVG and MCO. A captain could assign the easier "back to the hub" legs to the low-time guy. This helped new pilots contribute to the operation in an environment more forgiving of mistakes.

Today, these 300 hour pilots are based at JFK. Now I've nothing against these guys who are being hired with this experience level...or more appropriately, lack thereof, after all it's a great opportunity for them, but seriously...what is a Captain supposed to do with one of these seat-warmers who can't even operate the radios proficiently, let alone fly the aircraft? The level of tolerance for incompetence is almost zero in the New York area. Obviously, some will do better than others, but seriously...300 hours in nothing faster than a 172 or Seminole around the traffic pattern vs. flying an RJ in some of the busiest airspace in the world?

A Captain's role is to be a leader, perhaps even a mentor, but not a flight instructor. Single-pilot IFR in a regional jet may be possible for a handful of pilots out there, but throw in keeping an eye on the person next to you to make certain they're not trying to kill you, and it's a recipe for disaster.

I do agree that given enough time, these low-experience level pilots can mature into low-experience level Captains. Given even more time, they can mature into experienced Captains. Hopefully this experience will be acquired without increases in certificate violations, incidents, and accidents...but I'm skeptical.

Just because someone can be trained to push a couple of buttons on an autopilot and set a heading bug doesn't mean they bring skills to the flightdeck that are of value to the operation. It's unfortunate Comair can't seem to attract applicants of higher experience levels and quality anymore...you get what you pay for...and this company has developed a taste recently for devaluing experience.

If you're one of the new-hires with non-existent experience levels, please understand that the Captains you fly with will bend over backward to help you through your early days, but there are limits to how much they should have to assist.

 

[dbo861]

Back in those days, pilots hired at the majors with that amount of experience were sitting sideways watching gauges....not even talking on radios.

Back in the metro days, these guys were shuttling in and out of CVG and MCO. A captain could assign the easier "back to the hub" legs to the low-time guy. This helped new pilots contribute to the operation in an environment more forgiving of mistakes.

Today, these 300 hour pilots are based at JFK. Now I've nothing against these guys who are being hired with this experience level...or more appropriately, lack thereof, after all it's a great opportunity for them, but seriously...what is a Captain supposed to do with one of these seat-warmers who can't even operate the radios proficiently, let alone fly the aircraft? The level of tolerance for incompetence is almost zero in the New York area. Obviously, some will do better than others, but seriously...300 hours in nothing faster than a 172 or Seminole around the traffic pattern vs. flying an RJ in some of the busiest airspace in the world?

A Captain's role is to be a leader, perhaps even a mentor, but not a flight instructor. Single-pilot IFR in a regional jet may be possible for a handful of pilots out there, but throw in keeping an eye on the person next to you to make certain they're not trying to kill you, and it's a recipe for disaster.

I do agree that given enough time, these low-experience level pilots can mature into low-experience level Captains. Given even more time, they can mature into experienced Captains. Hopefully this experience will be acquired without increases in certificate violations, incidents, and accidents...but I'm skeptical.

Just because someone can be trained to push a couple of buttons on an autopilot and set a heading bug doesn't mean they bring skills to the flightdeck that are of value to the operation. It's unfortunate Comair can't seem to attract applicants of higher experience levels and quality anymore...you get what you pay for...and this company has developed a taste recently for devaluing experience.

If you're one of the new-hires with non-existent experience levels, please understand that the Captains you fly with will bend over backward to help you through your early days, but there are limits to how much they should have to assist.

I'm sorry, but how much more experience does a flight instructor with 1200TT flying a C172/PA44 have than a 300TT flight instructor? Or even a flight instructor with 3000 hours? Sure the higher time flight instructors might be better at demonstrating a Lazy 8 or steep turns. The problem is at some point you're going to have to make the transition to the bigger, faster, more complex aircraft. It doesn't matter if you have 300 hours or 3000 hours, if you've never flown a jet before, you're going to have a difficult transition. Also, isn't the purpose of IOE to have a captain babysit you to make sure you are bringing everything together you learned from training. If you aren't competent enough, you aren't getting through.

 

[V-1]

In all that post you quoted, I never advocated hiring 1200-hr. instructors. I would hope that in a thousand hours or so, one would develop skills and abilities beyond what they had at 300 hours. I know that's not what's in vogue with today's "I just got my commercial license, it's my god-given right to fly an RJ,...they told me so at the academy" mentality. If fact, if all an instructor is doing while riding shotgun in the right seat of a 172 is dreaming of flying RJ's, the system is broken. There's nothing wrong with having a career goal, but I guess I just feel that goal should be improving one's skills so they'll be a truly qualified candidate for a position somewhere.

The purpose of I.O.E. is not for the Captain to "babysit" the new-hire. The purpose of I.O.E. is to introduce the new-hire to how airline operations work. Radio communications and basic airmanship should be second nature before the candidate arrives for the job interview...not items that should be taught while on I.O.E. or line operations by Captains. Unfortunately in today's environment, when 200 hour pilots have been taught by 300 hour pilots, there's really not a lot of actual experience for the student to learn from. In time, these 200 hour pilots are teaching the next generation of "airline pilots".

I don't have an answer for the problem, as long as the traveling public is more interested in saving $10 on their ticket than ensuring they have a higher level of experience caring for their safety. I will say again that the environment the new breed of low-experience pilots is operating in is markedly different than it was in the past. JFK is not CVG, MCO, or SFB.

I agree that the transition into jet aircraft is somewhat difficult. I think if you have the ability to see the situation from a different perspective, you'd agree that a 300 hour CFI is going to have a much tougher time with that transition than a 3000 hour pilot whose been flying single-pilot IFR freight runs in a Baron or Chieftain for the last 1500 hours. I will tell you from experience that the decision-making ability of that individual, as well as the ability to perform well when a curveball is thrown their way, is far superior to those skills of the 300-hour CFI. Given the choice, I know without a doubt who I'd rather have as a teammate while operating into and out of JFK.

Unfortunately, pilots of this experience level are less likely to pursue employment at the regional level today, because they can command higher salaries elsewhere.

Once again, I never wrote a 1200TT flight instructor is the ideal candidate for this job. I also never wrote a 300 hour pilot can't eventually become an asset on the flightdeck. The concern is for the level of safety oftentimes sacrificed to fill that seat.

Respectfully.

 

[imacdog]

I'm sorry, but how much more experience does a flight instructor with 1200TT flying a C172/PA44 have than a 300TT flight instructor? Or even a flight instructor with 3000 hours? Sure the higher time flight instructors might be better at demonstrating a Lazy 8 or steep turns. The problem is at some point you're going to have to make the transition to the bigger, faster, more complex aircraft. It doesn't matter if you have 300 hours or 3000 hours, if you've never flown a jet before, you're going to have a difficult transition. Also, isn't the purpose of IOE to have a captain babysit you to make sure you are bringing everything together you learned from training. If you aren't competent enough, you aren't getting through.

If you don't know the difference, then you aren't ready yet.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

I know someone that just got hired with a little over 400TT and just UNDER 50 ME.

 

[surplus1]

My 02 cents - V-1 has the right idea but is asking the wrong questions and therefore getting the wrong answers.

If you ask - 'can a 300 hr pilot learn how to do the job'? The answer is YES.

If you ask - 'If I take the guy/gal in the left seat out of the picture, can that 300 hr pilot get us home? The answer is most probably, NO (not unless you're very lucky).

We survive these aberrations for two reasons only - most airplanes never have a serious problem in flight and very nearly all airplanes arrive at their destinations with both pilots alive, well and functioning. Therefore the problem solves itself over time and the window of exposure gets smaller with each flight.

There is a window where the risk factor is much higher than it should be but that is a realitively small window. Risk management (if it even exists at the particular airline) knows this and decides to take the risk. Most of the time they don't even think about it one way or the other.

Statistics tell us that the probability of losing an airplane or having it involved in a serious incident - due to the experience level (low) of the First Officer is virtually nonexistant - it 'never' happens. In fact, statistically, most serious incidents and hull losses occur in aircraft whose cockpit crews are highly experienced.

Accidents very rarely occur due to serious mechanical failures or inexperienced first officers. They almost never occur due to collapse of the captain and a 300-hr FO having to 'save the day'. I'm not sure, but my guess is you couldn't produce a single airline accident where the probable cause was attributed to the low flight time of the co-pilot. If it does happen, it will be blamed on the captain anyway; thus no statistic.

Result: there is no evidence to support the need for serious consideration against hiring low-time pilots (other than a possible increase in training costs, which is offset by very low entry level pay).

Yes, it is harder on the captain who has to endure the learning curve of an inexperienced crewmember and often very frustrating for that captain. This is especially true when the captain h/herself is relatively inexperienced (often the case in the small airlines - due to the rapid upgrade syndrome/reality).

The number crunchers don't measure 'captain frustration' and don't care about it. Statistics tell them that what they're doing is not a serious safety problem and therefore they don't worry about it.

The rest of us just have to roll with the punches, control the pucker factor and live with the frustrations for awhile.

Before too long that 300 hour guy will grow into a 10,000 hour guy that makes twice as many mistakes due to complacency, and is too proud to admit most, if any, of them.

It's all a part of this 'game' that we choose to play.

 

[V-1]

Astute as always, Surplus.

I'll leave this debate with a question your comments raised:

If our example 300-hour pilot is not capable of operating the aircraft single-pilot in the event crewmember incapacitation occurs, why are they even there?

Perhaps only because the 2000-hour pilot has taken a better job elsewhere?

Safety and economics are at two ends of a rope in a tug of war competition. One side is winning the battle right now, and it's not the side I'm rooting for.

 

[surplus1]

On that sir, I couldn't agree with you more.

In my experience, safety has never been able to compete with money as the decision maker. Money wins every time.

You just have to grin and bear it, stay on your toes and keep your fingers crossed.

Be careful out there and cya - the life you save may be your own.

Blue skies and tailwinds to ya.

 

[Tarzan]

I'm sorry, but how much more experience does a flight instructor with 1200TT flying a C172/PA44 have than a 300TT flight instructor? Or even a flight instructor with 3000 hours? Sure the higher time flight instructors might be better at demonstrating a Lazy 8 or steep turns. The problem is at some point you're going to have to make the transition to the bigger, faster, more complex aircraft. It doesn't matter if you have 300 hours or 3000 hours, if you've never flown a jet before, you're going to have a difficult transition. Also, isn't the purpose of IOE to have a captain babysit you to make sure you are bringing everything together you learned from training. If you aren't competent enough, you aren't getting through.

Spoken like a true 300 hour wonder.

I spent a good bit of time teaching and watching guys make the same mistakes over and over. It makes you humble and brings an awareness that you are capable of any mistake made by other pilots.out there. (After the Comair incident, I looked at the chart and knew that if the circumstances were right, I could make the same bad choice)

So as flying a jet... It is still an airplane. Just because it has turbine strapped to it, does not change the basic principle of flying.

Go back to your job you bought.