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Comair MEC cuts off comm. with company
- Thread starter RiddleEagle18
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samballs
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No we got rid of most of them
FightingIrish
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Perhaps your time would be better spent talking to your MEC rather than whining like a little girl on an internet message board. You have a highly experienced MEC Chairman who knows your company and your management like the back of his hand. He knows what he's doing, and you would do well to trust him.
Typical Dan Ford; focusing on mistakes of the past and offering no solutions for the future.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
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Obviously you haven't read the letter. In the letter Dan points out that he sent over a hundred emails to the CMR MEC warning them of the potential problems that would come up with a Delta merger.....They were ignored and in fact an errant email advocated a policy of non-communication.
Dan first offered a solution at the 1995 ALPA scope committee.....He has offered solutions.....Where were you in 1995?
Sorry, but I thought it was self-explanatory that I was referring only to plausible solutions, not pie in the sky fantasies that Dan likes to focus on.
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
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Sorry, but I thought it was self-explanatory that I was referring only to plausible solutions, not pie in the sky fantasies that Dan likes to focus on.
The cross bidding proposal back in 1995 wasn't plausible? Brand scope (or inclusive scope) wasn't plausible? Single lists aren't plausible? What exactly is plausible?
What are your solutions to the current quagmire?
samballs
Well-known member
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Dans letter was written terribly. It read as if he could not get his thoughts across. At no point did his letter offer solutions. He says in the letter that he and ALPA knew of certain events about to happen, but ALPA did nothing about them, he says this was hurting the pilot group. Well if he states that ALPA is suppose to watch out for the pilots, why did he not bring this information he magically had to the pilot group, well I say if Dan knew something he hurt the pilot group, because I can say no one knew what was gonna happen. All the Letter says is (in my own words) we should be on DL's seniority list. OH MEC knew we were gonna merge (as far as we know OH is not merging, remeber Dan DL and OH are 2 different companies) As of right now Comair is not part of the merger. And finally blah blah blah. Dan, give it up and retire even the people that supported you are laughing at you now. Well except Joe but we all know he is in fanasty land with you. Hears a thought if you want to fly for DL apply there.
Step 1: Get Dan Ford to shut the f--- up and stop pissing off the mainline pilots
Step 2: ?
Step 3: End of the whipsaw!
Guess I've been watching too many underpants gnomes episodes of southpark.
Seriously, though, as I've told you before, I'm not sure that there is a solution to the regional whipsaw. It can only be contained, not eliminated at this point.
Regardless of a letter written by Dan Ford, Comair/Delta is the entity angst should be directed toward. They are the ones who cannot create and execute a plan more than three days in advance. They are the ones that are constantly violating the pilot contract they agreed to. They are the ones who have elected to not cover lost pay by ALPA volunteers who perform work on both our and the company's behalf...even though Comair bills the union for that time anyway.
Certainly the MEC is not perfect, but blaming the union for taking action against violations by the company that are becoming more and more frequent is not the answer.
I think we have a "Stockholm Syndrome" pilot here. This is simply union busting 101, and a portion of the pilot group is not experienced enough to see it.
Certainly the MEC is not perfect, but blaming the union for taking action against violations by the company that are becoming more and more frequent is not the answer.
I think we have a "Stockholm Syndrome" pilot here. This is simply union busting 101, and a portion of the pilot group is not experienced enough to see it.
In case anyone hasn't read this from the latest VARS (I think RiddleEagle18 probably started this post before checking his/her e-mail):
Hello, this is Phil Stasik with your Comair MEC VARS message for Sunday, July 13th, 2008. We have one item of interest.
1) The Comair pilots have faced many difficult challenges in the decades since we joined together to form our union. The initial organizing drive, our fight for our first Working Agreement, every subsequent contract negotiation, the strike of 2001, the post 9-11 concessions and furloughs, and the sham bankruptcy of 2006, have all tested our mettle. Each and every time that things have gotten tough, we’ve stood together in unity, locked arms, and held our ground. We’ve defended our profession, and made history in the process. As the history of our union shows, the fight to defend our pilots never really ends. And so it is today.
Today, your MEC is facing at least three major challenges. The first is the over-arching challenge of protecting your interests as Delta and Northwest dance around the merger table. The second is protecting you from Delta/Comair management’s addiction to the “downsize to profitability” fallacy, and the threats to slash us with furloughs once again. The third challenge is a blatant, union-busting attempt on the part of Comair’s management. It is that third challenge that we’ll focus on today.
To recap the events of the last three weeks:
On Tuesday, June 24th, Comair’s Senior V.P. of Flight Operations, Dave Soaper sent your union a letter stating that he would no longer honor our requests for the union absences that are delineated in our Working Agreement. This was an attempt by our management to prevent your Association from performing the multitude of ALPA duties that are required to monitor contract compliance and to defend Comair pilots and your interests.
ALPA pilot volunteers need union leave to do critical safety work every day. Volunteers also process grievances, oversee the construction of your bid packets, monitor the monthly bid process, and manage the heavy burden of daily scheduling problems. Comair’s team of ALPA volunteers check the hotels that you stay in, advise you about retirement and insurance questions, help solve your aeromedical problems, stand up for you when training issues arise, and so much more! Your union dues assure that these volunteers can do your business both locally and at the national and occasionally, the international level.
It’s important to note that much of ALPA’s work provides both direct and indirect benefits to our company. In the field of safety alone, the symbiosis, for mutual benefit, between Comair and its pilots’ union is undeniable and priceless! Many Comair managers deeply understand the value of ALPA’s contribution to our airline, but Mr. Soaper seems to deny – maybe even resent – that fact.
Our Working Agreement, like every ALPA contract, has provisions that specify the way that ALPA compensates our company for “flight pay loss,” when a pilot is pulled from a leg, a trip, or a line to do ALPA work. The ALPA pilot gets his or her normal paycheck, and we get a bill from Comair (which includes a sizeable “override” fee) that we pay from our budget, which comes from your dues. It’s all been quite routine, and has worked well for decades on our property…until Mr. Soaper cut off the process and has driven all of us to the edge a cliff.
Management’s provocative and unilateral actions are a direct attempt to cut off our ability to run our daily operations, which include enforcing our contract and protecting your rights. We had to respond.
After considering all options, your MEC decided to withdraw all services that ALPA provides to help our airline in its daily operation. This was a very difficult decision for your MEC leadership, because we recognize that it will result in some short-term pain for our pilots and our company. We must plan for the long term.
Now is the time to take a stand against Mr. Soaper’s union busting tactics! This may be the only way to wake-up Delta/Comair’s top management to this man’s long history of disrupting what should be a productive Comair/ALPA relationship.
We have stopped all supportive services for our company, but we have not stopped fighting contract violations or pilot representation issues. We will continue to vigorously defend any pilot in need, as we have always done. Our ASAP program is still operational, and we strongly encourage you to continue to participate. The ASAP Event Review Committee is on hold until ALPA Safety can resume participation, which sadly puts this highly valuable program in jeopardy! We look forward to ALPA Safety’s return to the ERC as soon as the flight pay loss issue is solved.
The background is interesting. During the bankruptcy, Comair management stopped billing the Association for flight pay loss, and didn’t submit an invoice for approximately 10 months. We asked repeatedly for a bill, with no success. Finally, they decided to send us a massive, seven-figure bill that required detailed review to ensure its accuracy. Your MEC Secretary/Treasurer flies a normal schedule, so it has been a very long and difficult job to scrutinize the mass of data. Many, many errors were found! Management had wildly over-billed us, either as a result of careless accounting or perhaps in the hope that we would not catch their errors.
For example, they billed us for all of the bankruptcy settlement road shows and hotel expense, which were their responsibility. This alone, amounts to many tens of thousands of dollars. They have also billed us for things and then expect us to get the documentation to help prove that we owe them the money. This would be like a plumber doing work at your house, then sending you a bill asking what he did! This whole mess shows disregard for standard accounting and business practices, but is a classic example of how Comair management has been conducting itself under Mr. Soaper’s direction.
Your MEC works hard to protect your dues money. We refused to accept this sloppy accounting, and provided a corrected invoice to management.
We had a meeting with our management in March, and came up with a mutual agreement to get this cleaned up in May. Your MEC Chairman, Mark Cirksena and Vice-Chairman, Fred Herman had a meeting with Comair President, John Selvaggio and Dave Soaper in May, at which we presented them with a check for over $700,000. This is a serious chunk of your dues money that we’ve been fighting to protect! Your leaders assured them that ALPA will continue to promptly pay all verifiable flight pay loss invoices in the future as we always have in the past. This was agreeable to all.
Management then implemented the eMaestro crew tracking software on June 1st, in direct violation of our Working Agreement. They refused to give us the program access that ALPA needs to monitor scheduling, assist pilots, and assure contractual compliance. Mr. Soaper and his subordinate Mr. Scott Miller told us that the only way that we would get access to eMaestro would be to agree to its implementation. As you know, we rightfully refused that offer. When his first tactic didn’t work, Dave Soaper then cut off union leave requests in an attempt to further pressure us into eMaestro’s acceptance.
It’s bizarre, but this is the way Comair management works. Provocative, confrontational, sloppy, irresponsible. As we have said before, they are putting our airline at grave risk.
We will meet directly with Comair’s top management next week to find a solution. Comair and ALPA. We must work together for our mutual success.
We do understand that this withholding of our services will have some short- term negative effects on our pilot group and our airline, but we must take strong action now. This is as serious as it gets. As in the past, with your strong support, your union will succeed. Please stay strong and stay tuned.
That’s all for this message. Thank you for calling!
Hello, this is Phil Stasik with your Comair MEC VARS message for Sunday, July 13th, 2008. We have one item of interest.
1) The Comair pilots have faced many difficult challenges in the decades since we joined together to form our union. The initial organizing drive, our fight for our first Working Agreement, every subsequent contract negotiation, the strike of 2001, the post 9-11 concessions and furloughs, and the sham bankruptcy of 2006, have all tested our mettle. Each and every time that things have gotten tough, we’ve stood together in unity, locked arms, and held our ground. We’ve defended our profession, and made history in the process. As the history of our union shows, the fight to defend our pilots never really ends. And so it is today.
Today, your MEC is facing at least three major challenges. The first is the over-arching challenge of protecting your interests as Delta and Northwest dance around the merger table. The second is protecting you from Delta/Comair management’s addiction to the “downsize to profitability” fallacy, and the threats to slash us with furloughs once again. The third challenge is a blatant, union-busting attempt on the part of Comair’s management. It is that third challenge that we’ll focus on today.
To recap the events of the last three weeks:
On Tuesday, June 24th, Comair’s Senior V.P. of Flight Operations, Dave Soaper sent your union a letter stating that he would no longer honor our requests for the union absences that are delineated in our Working Agreement. This was an attempt by our management to prevent your Association from performing the multitude of ALPA duties that are required to monitor contract compliance and to defend Comair pilots and your interests.
ALPA pilot volunteers need union leave to do critical safety work every day. Volunteers also process grievances, oversee the construction of your bid packets, monitor the monthly bid process, and manage the heavy burden of daily scheduling problems. Comair’s team of ALPA volunteers check the hotels that you stay in, advise you about retirement and insurance questions, help solve your aeromedical problems, stand up for you when training issues arise, and so much more! Your union dues assure that these volunteers can do your business both locally and at the national and occasionally, the international level.
It’s important to note that much of ALPA’s work provides both direct and indirect benefits to our company. In the field of safety alone, the symbiosis, for mutual benefit, between Comair and its pilots’ union is undeniable and priceless! Many Comair managers deeply understand the value of ALPA’s contribution to our airline, but Mr. Soaper seems to deny – maybe even resent – that fact.
Our Working Agreement, like every ALPA contract, has provisions that specify the way that ALPA compensates our company for “flight pay loss,” when a pilot is pulled from a leg, a trip, or a line to do ALPA work. The ALPA pilot gets his or her normal paycheck, and we get a bill from Comair (which includes a sizeable “override” fee) that we pay from our budget, which comes from your dues. It’s all been quite routine, and has worked well for decades on our property…until Mr. Soaper cut off the process and has driven all of us to the edge a cliff.
Management’s provocative and unilateral actions are a direct attempt to cut off our ability to run our daily operations, which include enforcing our contract and protecting your rights. We had to respond.
After considering all options, your MEC decided to withdraw all services that ALPA provides to help our airline in its daily operation. This was a very difficult decision for your MEC leadership, because we recognize that it will result in some short-term pain for our pilots and our company. We must plan for the long term.
Now is the time to take a stand against Mr. Soaper’s union busting tactics! This may be the only way to wake-up Delta/Comair’s top management to this man’s long history of disrupting what should be a productive Comair/ALPA relationship.
We have stopped all supportive services for our company, but we have not stopped fighting contract violations or pilot representation issues. We will continue to vigorously defend any pilot in need, as we have always done. Our ASAP program is still operational, and we strongly encourage you to continue to participate. The ASAP Event Review Committee is on hold until ALPA Safety can resume participation, which sadly puts this highly valuable program in jeopardy! We look forward to ALPA Safety’s return to the ERC as soon as the flight pay loss issue is solved.
The background is interesting. During the bankruptcy, Comair management stopped billing the Association for flight pay loss, and didn’t submit an invoice for approximately 10 months. We asked repeatedly for a bill, with no success. Finally, they decided to send us a massive, seven-figure bill that required detailed review to ensure its accuracy. Your MEC Secretary/Treasurer flies a normal schedule, so it has been a very long and difficult job to scrutinize the mass of data. Many, many errors were found! Management had wildly over-billed us, either as a result of careless accounting or perhaps in the hope that we would not catch their errors.
For example, they billed us for all of the bankruptcy settlement road shows and hotel expense, which were their responsibility. This alone, amounts to many tens of thousands of dollars. They have also billed us for things and then expect us to get the documentation to help prove that we owe them the money. This would be like a plumber doing work at your house, then sending you a bill asking what he did! This whole mess shows disregard for standard accounting and business practices, but is a classic example of how Comair management has been conducting itself under Mr. Soaper’s direction.
Your MEC works hard to protect your dues money. We refused to accept this sloppy accounting, and provided a corrected invoice to management.
We had a meeting with our management in March, and came up with a mutual agreement to get this cleaned up in May. Your MEC Chairman, Mark Cirksena and Vice-Chairman, Fred Herman had a meeting with Comair President, John Selvaggio and Dave Soaper in May, at which we presented them with a check for over $700,000. This is a serious chunk of your dues money that we’ve been fighting to protect! Your leaders assured them that ALPA will continue to promptly pay all verifiable flight pay loss invoices in the future as we always have in the past. This was agreeable to all.
Management then implemented the eMaestro crew tracking software on June 1st, in direct violation of our Working Agreement. They refused to give us the program access that ALPA needs to monitor scheduling, assist pilots, and assure contractual compliance. Mr. Soaper and his subordinate Mr. Scott Miller told us that the only way that we would get access to eMaestro would be to agree to its implementation. As you know, we rightfully refused that offer. When his first tactic didn’t work, Dave Soaper then cut off union leave requests in an attempt to further pressure us into eMaestro’s acceptance.
It’s bizarre, but this is the way Comair management works. Provocative, confrontational, sloppy, irresponsible. As we have said before, they are putting our airline at grave risk.
We will meet directly with Comair’s top management next week to find a solution. Comair and ALPA. We must work together for our mutual success.
We do understand that this withholding of our services will have some short- term negative effects on our pilot group and our airline, but we must take strong action now. This is as serious as it gets. As in the past, with your strong support, your union will succeed. Please stay strong and stay tuned.
That’s all for this message. Thank you for calling!
Ding ding ding... we have a winner.
I'm a relative newbie at Comair and it's been interesting, to say the least, being part of the 'dynamics' between our pilot group and union. I may be generalizing a bit much, but much of our problems stem from communication issues; Simple as that.
I suspect that many of the former new-hires at Comair came in with previous union experience establishing a general assumption among our union leaders that newbies know how and when to interact, support, and generally be a 'productive' member of the union. I'll speak for myself, but I don't believe this assumption holds true any longer and I hope the union recognizes that. I'd suspect the average new-hire at Comair is in their mid to early-20's and has less than 1,000 hours, most of which was spent in the right seat giving instruction (and many of them at JFK being that it's our junior base). It's not their fault that they got hired without having experience with unions, it's simply a result of our industry right now. I came from working a corporate job for 9 years and this was my first opportunity at being part of a labor group; I was stoked at the opportunity. I suspect most of us want to be supportive members of our union, we just have difficulty knowing the how and why.
During new hire training, the union came in to discuss the why, when, and where of the union. We were all pretty excited about the meeting. Unfortunately... it was laughable at best. Not just my opinion, but of all 16 guys in my new-hire class and it our opinions were communicated back to the union. Not a good start in the 16 newly developed relationships between pilot and union and it all stemmed from communication. My $.02.
This is an honest question.. what do you think the response would be if someone (relatively junior) walked up to our union leaders and said "I think you have a communication problem with your newer members and I'd like to help you fix it."
samballs
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 1,511
We can agree that they have always sucked at communication. I wish it was true that new pilots would love to help the union if they could, but the fact is they don't want to do VOLUNTEER work, and most of them do not even know what the contract looks like. The new guys don't usually read that contract until its discipline time. If you think you can do better with the Comm call 859-282-9016 this is the MEC office number they will lead you in the right direction. We just had for the most part, the last of JC's comittee members leave, actually they decided to all to leave at the same time. This did not hurt the MEC it hurt the pilot group. So there are open positions, now is the time to volunteer, or you can sit back and watch.
The guys that did leave, did it in a way to screw the MEC, next time you see one of these guys thank them for hurting the pilot group. If you need to know who left and what they did feel free to PM me..
TristarJS30
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Posts
- 114
Cavu4u and imacdog have hit the nail squarely on the head. ALPA workers and the hardcore ALPA guys all keep complaining about "mis-information" and rumors. How many times recently have we gotten emails about this hacked-together merger fund that tells us to stop listening to rumors and ask someone in the MEC.
Well, how about you just tell us in plain English? In the email RiddleEagle (the OP) was talking about, they (the MEC) said that they had some issues they were working on, then comes along the furlough issue to pile on top of all of the other issues. They said they will work on the issues in the order in which they come, and I (along with many others) took that to mean that furloughs are low on the priority list, again cementing the idea that senior pilots on the seniority list and ALPA doesn't care about the little guy whose dues are worthless in comparison.
A simple plain-english, non propaganda email will do wonders in making this pilot group cohesive and work together. Even in the email posted above, they mention a suspension of services. What services? I've heard everything from the ASAP program to hotels and schedule review committee.
Communication is key, and if we are going to work together (like a union is supposed to,) then we all need to be on the same page. You may say go call your status rep to find out, but should all 1500 of us really have to make the same phone call?
And before you ALPA pitbulls come at me, let me just say this. I pay my dues, and I pay my "merger fund." I'm in no danger of furloughs (unless they come through with a 2nd round) and I'm making peace with the fact I'll be on reserve for the next few years now after having enjoyed being a line-holder for so long. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm glad I have ALPA on my side. Noone else would look after me. I just don't have to like everything they do or tell me to do... and I most certainly don't follow blindly like many do.
Edited for spelling.
Well, how about you just tell us in plain English? In the email RiddleEagle (the OP) was talking about, they (the MEC) said that they had some issues they were working on, then comes along the furlough issue to pile on top of all of the other issues. They said they will work on the issues in the order in which they come, and I (along with many others) took that to mean that furloughs are low on the priority list, again cementing the idea that senior pilots on the seniority list and ALPA doesn't care about the little guy whose dues are worthless in comparison.
A simple plain-english, non propaganda email will do wonders in making this pilot group cohesive and work together. Even in the email posted above, they mention a suspension of services. What services? I've heard everything from the ASAP program to hotels and schedule review committee.
Communication is key, and if we are going to work together (like a union is supposed to,) then we all need to be on the same page. You may say go call your status rep to find out, but should all 1500 of us really have to make the same phone call?
And before you ALPA pitbulls come at me, let me just say this. I pay my dues, and I pay my "merger fund." I'm in no danger of furloughs (unless they come through with a 2nd round) and I'm making peace with the fact I'll be on reserve for the next few years now after having enjoyed being a line-holder for so long. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm glad I have ALPA on my side. Noone else would look after me. I just don't have to like everything they do or tell me to do... and I most certainly don't follow blindly like many do.
Edited for spelling.
Last edited:
flyboyike
Urban Legend/Rural Myth
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2006
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- 1,852
That is a blatant lie! I wanted to join the safety committee (I have corporate safety, accident investigation as well as EMS experience) and was told by SP that "due to US Airways decert there was no money to send anyone to training until who knows when". It's awful hard for people to volunteer, when nobody will let them. Yes, I'm fairly new and yes, I'm JFK-based.
flyboyike
Urban Legend/Rural Myth
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Amen! I constantly feel like the MEC is lying to me at least as much as the company.
Speedtape
Well-known member
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- Oct 10, 2004
- Posts
- 1,973
Why would the MEC, your fellow line pilots, lie to you? Go to the meetings and challenge anything that you feel is out of order. Call your reps. They should not be above accountability--but then as a member, neither should you!
flyboyike
Urban Legend/Rural Myth
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- Apr 30, 2006
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Good question.
The answer is that they aren't.
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