COMAIR in Atlanta....

[Bill Mostellar]

Is there anything from the DALPA website, or VARS, or other union publications that explains what other options they are looking at to return their furloughs to work? Of course, being at Comair, I only hear of the one thing they've tried to do (approach Comair).

I doubt anything will be published by the MEC until membership ratification is required; it's just not good strategy to reveal that much information to your/our advesary - management. We'll just have to trust the MEC.

However, I suspect they're going to draw a line in the sand at 70 seats. What we offer in return is anyone's guess.

I wish you success!

 

[captainv]

surplus1, bvt1151,

any response to my last post? again, don't take those questions as proof of what i believe, i'm just trying to bring up logical counterpoints to issues you've raised, esp. on Delta/ALPA restricting use of the RJs.

Respectfully,
Captainv

 

[bvt1151]

captainv,

much faith has been placed in our MEC because we have been around long enough to see what he can do for the Comair pilots. You have not, so you have no faith in our MEC. That is why you will understand when you have been around Comair for a while.

As far as the 70-seaters are concerned, it will never happen the way it is being proposed. Either Delta will have all of the 70-seaters or they'll have none. Let me explain why:
Let's say Delta pilots receive the rest of the 70-seater aircraft. That creates a situation where two pilot groups, under the same management, and under the same representative union are flying the same "craft and class" of aircraft. Throw in Delta pilots (furloughs) flying Comair aircraft, and that just makes the situation worse. Comair/ASA pilots have a right to ask for PID, which we all know will never ever be seen in our lifetime. So, how does Delta (or DALPA) rectify the situation and prevent the nmb from granting PID? They have to destroy one of the criteria...the aircraft of the same craft and class. This means that no longer will Comair/ASA pilots AND[/i} Delta pilots be flying the same aircraft. So what happens to the 70-seaters? You can be sure ALPA will fight to obtain all 70-seaters on Delta property (which in itself proposes a huge conflict of interest, since ALPA is supposed to represent the Comair pilot's best interests too...but that's a different post). Since everybody is convinced Delta will not be able to operate the 70-seaters as efficiently as Comair, there will be pressure from management to return the 70's to Comair. Where they go will probably be a battle between DALPA and Delta management, with the "little" Comair pilots screaming on the sides. So what is the risk of both groups flying the 70-seaters?...One of them is going to have aircraft pulled out from under them. In any case, Comair has no voice in any of these arguments.

ALPA has never hesitated to use "force maneure" over its own pilots to further its own national interests. Just look at the Eagle/AMR situation. They screwed over their own pilots for the AMR pilots who they don't even represent! Could it be an effort to woo AMR from APA? One could only speculate. If you're looking for facts, I'd suggest looking up:

Trans World Airlines/Ozark Airlines, 14 NMB 218 (1987)

MESA AIRLINES, INC/CCAIR, INC/AIR MIDWEST, 29 NMB 359 (2002).

Trans World Airlines/American Airlines, 29 NMB 201 (2002).

I'd also suggest looking into the Eagle/AMR situation. Its very easy to relate past situations there, with current situations at Comair. Keep following the path and see where it leaves Comair.

What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

I wasn't looking for an answer from you, captainv. That was some bad paragraph structure on my part. However, before you pick sides, which although you deny, seems clear you have, its important to ask yourself that question. The only answer I've gotten is "we're not at liberty to say." Before we are asked to compromise with our management for pilots who don't even belong to our group, I'd at least like to know DALPA is trying other avenues. In the letter from the Comair MEC to the Delta MEC, Lawson lists three issues; only one of which would be a sufficient compensation for the concessions we would have to give up while working with management to get Delta furloughs here. Those three things were:
1.Relax scope
2. Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language that defines flying to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
3. Negotiate a plan for future integration seniority lists.

(These have been summarized, however you can find the entire letter on Comair's ALPA website. I haven't had any trouble opening it, but I'd contact the webmaster if you are.)

When the DALPA MEC left the meeting, it was a clear statement that all of these items (not collectively) were more important than returning his furloughs to work.

I'll repeat what I've said before, when you've been at Comair long enough to see the trends, and have faith in the people around you, you'll understand our point of view. Unfortunately by that time, you (we) may be out of a job. Frankly the greatest threat to our job security isn't the economy, nor the threat of terrorism. The greatest threat to our job security comes from pilots within our very own company and union.

Fact is there are more Delta pilots who pay more money to ALPA than Comair pilots. When there is a dispute between the two, who do you think the union is going to support? That is why the Comair pilots are fighting to make the decisions concerning the Comair pilots future.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

In your interview with Delta, had you stated your preference for working at United, American...I doubt seriously that you would have received a job offer.

Many of those hired received offers from more than one major. Plato and his team understood seniority very well and were
typically skeptical of anyone who was adamant about one major vs. another.

Perhaps therefore, Comair management should not be quite so villified for its decision to go with the majority. By the same token the Comair pilot group, which does not control hiring policy at Comair, should not be blamed for management's decisions.

The Comair MEC certainly doesn't decide who's hired, but it did make it's position clear to management:

At its October meeting, the MEC passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to meet with the Comair MEC to pursue a reciprocal preferential hiring policy for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair and for Comair pilots at Delta. This week, MEC Chairman Capt. Will Buergey met with the Comair MEC Chairman in Cincinnati to discuss this issue further. The Comair MEC Chairman stated that his MEC administration does not support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. ASA management, at the ASA MEC’s request, has already hired furloughed Delta pilots, who start at the bottom of the airline’s seniority list and retain their recall rights at Delta.
DALPA Code A Phone, December 5, 2002

Granted you are not destroying the profession. I do hope there is no implication that we might be.

It's not an implication. The elimination of Scope will certainly destroy the profession.

In that we share the very same profession, it makes no sense that either of us should seek to destroy it....I further hope that your MEC will not seek to use the careers of Comair pilots as one of the tools with which it may bargain. A change in that policy, on the part of your MEC, would go a long way to mending the fences.

The key difference is that ALL Delta flying (Mainline, Express, Song, ASA, Comair, Skywest, etc.) falls under the scope provisions of Mainline.

I don't know that there will be 'concessionary bargaining' in the near term. If there is, your careers will more likely be used by managment to bargain against us.

I too wish you success as well as the speedy recall of all your furloughed associates.

Thanks.

 

[bvt1151]

In reply to Mr. Mostellar:

The elimination of Scope will certainly destroy the profession.

Thats a very strong statement! It does, however, explain the attitudes of the Delta pilots towards the Connection pilots. Without your intervention (scope), we would ruin the profession.

Starting to see what really makes DALPA tick, captainv?

 

[9rj9]

More Comair in ALT

Rumor has it, ATL crew base early 2004.
ATLANTA, May 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Delta Connection will offer additional daily nonstop jet flights in July between Delta Air Lines' (NYSE: DAL - News) hub in Atlanta and the cities of Akron-Canton and Cleveland, Ohio; Houston and Milwaukee. Delta Connection carrier Comair will operate one additional round-trip flight each between Atlanta and Cleveland, Milwaukee and Houston Hobby Airport effective July 1, and to Akron-Canton beginning July 14. The flights will be operated with the Bombardier CRJ regional jet.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

In reply to Mr. Mostellar:



Thats a very strong statement! It does, however, explain the attitudes of the Delta pilots towards the Connection pilots. Without your intervention (scope), we would ruin the profession.

Starting to see what really makes DALPA tick, captainv?

Bvt,

You wouldn't be around to ruin the profession.

Without scope, we would ALL be replaced with the cheapest labor. You are not immune.


As to the rest of this discussion, most of the facts are not in dispute. cmr mgt does control the hiring. They have made a rule that all pilots must resign seniority numbers. They have also expressed a willingness to change the rule, if it did not cause problems witht the cmr pilot group. The cmr mec was unwilling to make such an assurance, even though it would have cost them nothing.

As for me, I fail to see the problem. jc lawson and his cronies have made it clear that they do not support the idea of cmr pilots and Delta pilots sharing a cockpit.

Who are we to ignore his wishes?

 

[DDpaysoff]

Bvt, is right on the three issues we asked for. It is there in writing in the crew room and in my mailbox. You people at DALPA have a chance to do this right. ALL DAL flying to be done my mainline w/ integration of ASA and CMR. We can eliminate scrubs like **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**aqua, skyw and aca. Then we will ask mgmt to change policy, and you left the table.
Don't try to pull a sales job on this pilot group. I think we know that doesn't work. This whole thing about structuring the integration so your new hire military buddies don't have to fly the rj is rediculous. You are willing to negotiate for people who are not even on your list but, not for pilots that are owned by the same comany? That tells me enough, and I have heard that from several of DAL pilots. You can sit there and believe when one of your managers come in the crew room and says that comair believes it is a crm issue to hire DAL pilots, but I see it in writing from our MEC. You chose to leave the table. I am sorry for your furloughed brothers and I can assure you that we are doing all we can to get them back as soon as possible by getting DAL back in the black. I am sure our brothers at ASA, who we will get even closer with in the future, are doing the same thing.

 

[bvt1151]

9rj9,

thanx for returning the thread to its origional topic (or at least trying to). I guess we all got caught in the flame bait.

Mr. Mostellar:

They(cmr mgmt) have also expressed a willingness to change the rule, if it did not cause problems witht the cmr pilot group. The cmr mec was unwilling to make such an assurance, even though it would have cost them nothing.

What information do you have to substantiate that sentence? Comair management has never expressed a willingness to change their policy, unless something was negotiated in return. Comair has been asked to negotiate, not Delta.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

What information do you have to substantiate that sentence? Comair management has never expressed a willingness to change their policy, unless something was negotiated in return. Comair has been asked to negotiate, not Delta.

Please reference the comments made by Fred Buttrell in the ATL pilots lounge in a roadshow attended by himself and Fred Reid. There, he stated that they would love to hire furloughed Delta pilots, but were concerned about "CRM issues."

While many like to post that it is mgt's decision, and I agree with them, one cannot disregard the effect of the cmr pilot group's wishes. Furthermore, if everyone is so convinced that it is only mgt's decision, why not issue a meaningless statement in support of the hiring? It would cost nothing, affect nothing (according to some) and result in not only the support of the Delta pilots for the hiring of cmr pilots at Delta, but also some goodwill between the pilot groups.

Apparently, the cost of a stamp is too dear a price to help a handful of unemployed pilots.

It is shameful, and for the cmr pilots to expect that their silence (and compliance) will be overlooked by the Delta pilots is hopelessly naive.