COMAIR in Atlanta....

[General Lee]

Thanks Sleepy, you just made my point. I don't have an "agenda" here to divide pilot groups. I don't enjoy making people mad. I really want my friends to get back into cockpits and do something they ENJOY. I really enjoy my job, and feel LUCKY to have a good one. I don't think I was ENTITLED to get this one, I was just lucky and did well in the process. My whole point is that there are a lot of good furloughed pilots out there that would not act like they were "all that and a bag of chips" around you---they just want to fly planes and get paid. The majority of pilots at Comair probably want to help, but somebody has to get rid of that policy. The ASA guys didn't see the "jerk" Delta pilots who supposedly talk down to them, they saw the furloughed guys/gals out on the street. They are the ones that are suffering. The ASA pilots did the right thing, and I don't care if I have to call the interviewers myself everyday to remind them, I will remind them what they did for us. It might be a while before we hire, but when we do after the furloughs come back, it will be good for those involved. We hired 3000 pilots from '96 to 99, and yes 1310 are on the street. Being in that first wave really helps, trust me. Thank you again ASA pilots, and to the Comair pilots I will say just think about trashing that policy---it might help.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[cocknbull]

It's funny. I was watching animal kingdom and they were telling the story of the shark and that thing that just rides around the sharks back and sucks its food right of the sharks back. After a while food in the ocean became rare, but that sucker just kept sucking. Soon the sucker was nearly as big as the shark. However that sucker did not appriciate what the shark had did for it. As a result the shark was upset, but the sucker showed no pitty. A few months went by and the sucker swam around the ocean basking in its new found power. The shark down but not out swam and swam and swam; soon the oceans were full of fish and the shark got fat again. The sucker's luck had changed for the worst. The sucker had tried to go alone. It soon realized its small body and niche did not allow it to succeed alone. Tired of seeing the whimpy little sucker the shark bit its head off.

Pitty Pitty isn't it.......

 

[bvt1151]

cocknbull,

nice story. How about the one where the adult male lion kills all the cubs to prevent it from being challenged? But then the one cub who escaped the jaws of the lion came back to win control of the pride...pitty pitty.

There's a story for everything


General,
This could go on forever. Obviously you've got your version of the truth and we've got ours. Pilots are notoriously bull-headed and this instance is no different. Just try to understand one thing; Your entire argument rests on the ideas that the Comair pilots are BELOW the Delta pilots. This mind-set is apparent in the way our MEC was approached with the set of demands. We weren't approached with an offer. We were approached with a threat. "Hire our furloughs or no Comair pilot will ever work for Delta." You've even said it yourself, many times. If you expect us to give up something in negotiations with our own managment you need to offer something (preferential hiring isn't a realistic offer. It doesn't even exist). Until then I think you'll receive the same reception.

Somebody brought up a good point. Your management owns ours. Why don't you pressure them into changing Comair's policy? Leo, Fred A. and B. all want divided pilot groups, its good for business. All they would have to do (if they really cared about furloughs) is to make it so. Just like all your MEC would have to do (if it really was at the top of his list) is pressure management into Comair's changing of the policy. Both have more leverage than the Comair MEC.
So why wouldn't (1)the Freds and (2) your MEC take it into their own hands?

Answers:
1. The Freds see the pilot groups dividing all by themselves, which keeps their black numbers big, and their red numbers small. Labor Relations for Managers 101.

2. Your MEC isn't willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues. He would rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots. If they don't agree, then he'll just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

So don't tell me your pilots are on the streets because of Lawson. All your MEC and "friendly" managers have to do is snap their fingers and it's done. They never planned on giving anything up to get the furloughs working again, which is why they were so shocked when Lawson tried to negotiate. Ultimately the responsibility for the furloughs lies squarely on the Delta pilots' sholders. The question is, are the DELTA pilots willing to give up what would be required to get DELTA furloughs working, or are they content sitting back and blaming Comair? Each furlough at Delta needs to ask themselves that question.

 

[captainv]

Surplus1,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail. I appreciate the effort, that's probably the most comprehensive post i've seen concerning the view from the Comair side of the fence.

Also, bvt1151, thanks for the condensed version!

obviously i'm sympathetic to the Delta furloughees because of my friend. but that doesn't mean that i'm not supportive of the Comair pilot group. one reason i post is to try to figure out what's hype and hyperbole and what's the truth. however, there's lots of hype and hyperbole on both sides, and truth often depends on our own point of view. that said, i still have an open mind about things. as i've said before, i'm new to Comair, new to the airlines, new to this whole way of thinking. so, you must understand that things that may seem obvious to you based on your career experiences have no impact on me because i haven't walked in your shoes. they may in time, but then again, my career and my experiences will always be vastly different from yours.

also, i'm going to raise lots of opposing views in response to issues you wrote about. that doesn't necessarily mean i support them, i'm just trying to be objective and add to the debate of ideas. anyway, let me reply to some of the issues you raised.

>>The fact is that the Comair MEC is NOT preventing Comair from hiring Delta pilots. They are not being hired by Comair because they choose of their own free will not to comply with Comair's requirements. (giving up senority at DAL)

true enough. my new hire class of 14 included 4 furloughees from the majors/regionals. They all had to resign from their previous airline, and although they knew of this coming in, it was a difficult decision to make when it came down to it. so yes, the Delta furloughees are asking for special treatment.

and yes, it seems that Delta mgt. has the power to instruct Comair mgt. to hire the furloughees. i've mentioned the role of Delta mgt. in the past, i.e. they control where DCI flies, and where DAL pulls back. they control our aircraft orders and deliveries, and thus our hiring needs. they decide when DAL parks airplanes or retires a specific type and how many options we have for future growth. Delta pilots posted in response that they are infuriated with mgt's actions and discuss it at length in-house. outwardly, they are angry at us for not pitching in to help, as ASA has done by hiring furloughees.

you allege that the Delta MEC wants to divide the Comair pilot group, take the 70-seater for itself and restrict the use of the 50-seater. (i say allege because this is what you believe to be true. none of us can possibly know what someone else is thinking)

now, don't take this excerpt as support for his positions, but Gen. Lee has said that we are limited to 57 in DCI, and that they would want 70-seaters in addition to the 57 DCI would share. if this accurately represents the DAL view (a big if, perhaps), that doesn't impact Comair, unless it's the limit of 57 that you're objecting to. as for restricting use of the 50-seater, if we're adding 30+ airplanes (50s and 70s) this year and hiring 300+ pilots, does it not stand to reason that we are in fact expanding our use of the 50-seater?

or, in another tack, why would Delta take the 70 to mainline? wouldn't that be more expensive than leaving it at DCI? would they pay Comair rates to the furloughees that are brought back to fly it? what about mechanics, flight attendants, gate agents, rampers? i can't see ASA/Comair employees servicing a mainline aircraft flown by mailine pilots. i would think DAL mgt. would see it as more cost-effective for furloughees to fly RJs at Comair first-year rates, so i doubt they would support such a move.

you state that our MEC "was chosen by Comair pilots to represent the interests of Comair pilots, and to protect the job security of Comair pilots, not the interests of Delta pilots and that is exactly what it is doing." i would agree that is what he is doing. also, it's not his job to help me or any other Comair pilot get hired by Delta. that's my problem, should i choose to take that road.

by the same token though, isn't it the responsiblity of the Delta MEC to represent the interests and job security of Delta pilots? (and not those of Comair pilots?) how can we slam him for doing what we so vigorously assert is perfectly logical for us to do?

you mention that some of our pilots are suing to protect our flying as well as what we fly. looking at it from the other side of the fence, don't Delta pilots have a valid beef with us? they are losing aircraft and routes, while we are gaining aircraft and routes. now, i admit that is a very broad and vague statement and i don't have the details to make it more concise. But didn't Delta give up scope to DCI on domestic flights?

as for the "one list" argument, it seems to me that merging based on date of hire is too simplistic. perhaps if you included size of equipment flown, and what you were paid to fly it and also date of hire. still wouldn't be fair though. just in our side of the house, what about a senior guy who stayed in the Brasilia until the last day so he could fly out of MCO? would he be penalized versus someone who went right to the RJ? besides, if we went to one list based on date of hire, then mostly Comair pilots (myself included, of course) would be out on the street, based on recent hiring. that would mean our MEC couldn't support that, because it doesn't protect the interests of Comair pilots.

i'm going to have to give up on what happened during the strike. I wasn't here, i didn't experience it, so in that sense i'll never know. if Comair guys were mistreated somehow, it's not my axe to grind. if Delta guys supported us, it's not for me to say thanks. i have to rely on my own experiences, mainly jumpseating, as it gives me a chance to talk to Delta crews face to face. and I'm proud to say that every captain i've flown with (Comair or Delta) has been entirely professional about jumpseat usage.

on to disagreeing with my MEC. no, i absolutely do not have all the facts, just my opinions, which are subject to change. one reason i spend time on this board is to try to get some of the facts. i just haven't heard that much from the union since training, (@ 6 months ago), and certainly that is my fault as well. i haven't gone looking for it, except in occasional visits to the web site or breezing by the board in Ops. i missed the recent meeting as i was out on a trip, plus i commute and spend as little free time in CVG as possible. however, i'd love to see more correspondence from the union concerning current activities, perhaps through our nifty new company e-mail addresses.

with that, i'll sign off. it's extremely late and much of this has become stream-of-consciousness. i apologize in advance for any unintended flame-bait....

Captainv

 

[Heavy Set]

CaptainV,

Well said. You raise some excellent points. Finally some logic in this lunacy...

 

[bvt1151]

Your thoughts, captainv, represent only what you've heard, not what's really going on behind the scenes. If things were just as you said they were, then this would all be very black and white. However they're not. This isn't a case of an outsider being able to look at the situation unjaded and make a fair judgement. This is a case of an outsider who doesn't understand exactly whats happening.

I'll repeat what I asked in my last post: Why don't the Delta pilots negotiate with management to get their furloughs working again? Is the Delta MEC willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues? Or would he rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots? If they don't agree, then just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.


In the interest of ending the debate whether or not Comair was threatened, I've included Webster's theories on the subject.
threat (-et)n announcement of what the speaker intends to do if his orders or wishes are not complied with.
Example, "If you don't pressure management into hiring Delta furloughs without requiring them to resign their number, we will see to it that Comair pilots do not get hired at Delta."

 

[captainv]

bvt1151,

>Your thoughts, captainv, represent only what you've heard, not what's really going on behind the scenes.

fair enough, it's either what i've heard, or me trying to apply logic to what i can see for myself. for example, i know for a fact we are adding airplanes and pilots at Comair. anyone can see that. how are the Delta guys trying to restrict us on the 50-seater? (an issue surplus1 raised)

also, how would i know what's going on behind the scenes? the union website has a letter from J.C. Lawson to the Delta MEC, but for some reason it won't open.... i get an error message. also, we want to have a seat at the table if the Delta MEC were to negotiate something that would negatively affect us. well sure, that makes sense. of course that would mean we give the Delta MEC a seat at the table if we were to decide something that would negatively affect the Delta pilots.

on that, the furloughs don't count - no matter where you stand on this, at this time we treat them the same as we treat all other furloughees. they all have to give up their senority numbers. also, you could even argue that our adding planes/routes while Delta cuts planes/routes doesn't count either - that decision was not made by our MEC or our mgt. It was made by Delta mgt.

you say that i'm "an outsider who doesn't understand exactly what's happening." well, obviously i'm not behind the scenes, whatever that means. why am i an outsider? because i'm new? just because i don't share your views or see the evidence supporting them doesn't mean i won't if you were to point it out to me. but there's a difference between opnions and facts. i see lots of opinions on this board (my own included). i'll let the facts sway me.

>I'll repeat what I asked in my last post: Why don't the Delta pilots negotiate with management to get their furloughs working again?

i'd submit that i'm the wrong person to ask. i spend most of my time figuring out what's going on in my own pilot group. perhaps they are. any comments from Delta pilots on this? published reports say they're considering concessions, i know they opposed the force majeure and won, only to have another war break out. i'm sure they're fighting that too. gen. lee insists they're asking for 70-seaters, beyond what we're allocated to get. but all this is from a true outsider's perspective.

>>Is the Delta MEC willing to give on an issue to negotiate the Comair/furlough issues? Or would he rather let the Comair pilots compromise their issues with Comair management as a "favor" to the Delta pilots? If they don't agree, then just "go public" and blame the Comair pilots for the Delta furlough problem. Either way he can always tell the furloughs "we did 'all' we could do." Rather brilliant way to keep from compromising with mgmt and to avoid the issue of furloughs...assuming the furloughs don't figure it out.

>>What, besides threatening Comair pilots, are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

if you're asking me to tell you what the Delta MEC is willing to do about the furloughees, again, i'm the wrong person to ask. i gave you my opinion on what they might be doing, but i'm just guessing.

>>In the interest of ending the debate whether or not Comair was threatened, I've included Webster's theories on the subject.
threat (-et)n announcement of what the speaker intends to do if his orders or wishes are not complied with.
Example, "If you don't pressure management into hiring Delta furloughs without requiring them to resign their number, we will see to it that Comair pilots do not get hired at Delta."

well, certainly that's the view of some, if not many, Delta pilots. we won't know if that's true until they start hiring. until then, it's just a threat.

this raises another question central to most of these issues. what exactly happened at the meeting between our MEC and the Delta MEC? Did Delta try to bully us, threatening to blackball our pilots? Did we demand one list as a condition? according to posts on this board, the Delta MEC swears to his pilots that we attacked him. Our MEC swears to us that the Delta MEC ambushed him. someone isn't telling the truth, and i for one would like to know what happened. if i simply put faith in my own MEC, and Delta pilots do the same, we'll just point fingers at each other and go round in circles like this forever. i'd rather know really happened, so i can be confident that my MEC has earned my faith.

we might find out that one of the MEC's has been lying, and if so, he could be recalled. or we might find out that what was discussed in the meeting has been spun and blown completely out of proportion, which might help us all settle down a little.

a few other thoughts. most younger guys, myself included, would like to go on to fly for the majors, if the opportunity should exsist when we have competitive numbers. at this exact moment, Delta and Airtran would be at the top of my list, basically since i live in Atlanta. if the opportunity doesn't exist at any time in the next 30 years, so be it. i'll be happy to stay at Comair. as i've said before, it's a great airline, with great people. i love it here.

still. i would prefer the door at Delta be open, not shut in my face in retribution for a decision i had no input on. (speaking of which, why not vote on it? then we'd know where we all stand on the issue) that doesn't mean i only want to fly for Delta, and it doesn't mean they'd hire me anyway. i'd just like a shot. who knows, in 5-10 years or whenever the furloughs are all back and the majors start hiring again, i'll want to work for one of the top airlines. maybe it'll be Delta, maybe it'll be Southwest, maybe JetBlue, who knows?

Captainv

 

[Bill Mostellar]

What ... are the Delta pilots doing to get their furloughs working again? This question is not rhetorical. I'm interested in an answer.

For starters, we're making their COBRA payments so they can continue with the same level of medical care they had before the furlough. You would be amazed at the number of employers who won't touch a furloughed pilot - not because of their ability, but because of their possibility of recall. Many of the families would be forced into very difficult positions without this safety DALPA has provided.

Second, we're not destroying the profession they worked hard to obtain - at least not yet. Each of us is in this profession for personal, specific reasons. We'll see what happens when the MEC responds to management's request.

I wish you success!

 

[surplus1]

I like your post.

For starters, we're making their COBRA payments so they can continue with the same level of medical care they had before the furlough. You would be amazed at the number of employers who won't touch a furloughed pilot - not because of their ability, but because of their possibility of recall. Many of the families would be forced into very difficult positions without this safety DALPA has provided.

What you are doing with respect to the COBRA payments for your fourloughed pilots is admirable, should be respected and emulated where applicable. It is one of the "the right things" to do. A "well done" to the Delta pilot group is deserved and I happily add my kudos.

You are very correct in saying that very many (I would say most)employers will not touch a furloughed pilot because of the possibility of recall. This is true. It is also not new and is not unique to pilots, and has been present in all previous rounds of furloughs in the airline business. It is difficult for an employer to be eager to hire an individual who makes it known before the fact that he/she has no true interest in working for that company but is using it as a stop-gap or means to go (or return) elsewhere. In your interview with Delta, had you stated your preference for working at United, American or AirTran, I doubt seriously that you would have received a job offer.

Perhaps therefore, Comair management should not be quite so villified for its decision to go with the majority. By the same token the Comair pilot group, which does not control hiring policy at Comair, should not be blamed for management's decisions.

Second, we're not destroying the profession they worked hard to obtain - at least not yet. Each of us is in this profession for personal, specific reasons. We'll see what happens when the MEC responds to management's request.

I wish you success!

Granted you are not destroying the profession. I do hope there is no implication that we might be. In that we share the very same profession, it makes no sense that either of us should seek to destroy it. I am sure that your MEC will do its best to safeguard the achievements of Delta pilots in the upcoming round of concessionary bargaining. I further hope that your MEC will not seek to use the careers of Comair pilots as one of the tools with which it may bargain. A change in that policy, on the part of your MEC, would go a long way to mending the fences.

I too wish you success as well as the speedy recall of all your furloughed associates.

 

[bvt1151]

I agree the cobra payments are necessary to the furloughs, and are one of the most fundamental protections the union can offer. You are right Mr. Mostellar, and I don't want you to think I'm disagreeing with you, because I appreciate the reply to my question. However, I'm interested in DALPA's direct actions to actively get the furloughs back into the cockpit. Paying for benefits only helps sustain a furlough, and is not an active attempt to return the furlough to work.

Is there anything from the DALPA website, or VARS, or other union publications that explains what other options they are looking at to return their furloughs to work? Of course, being at Comair, I only hear of the one thing they've tried to do (approach Comair).