COMAIR in Atlanta....

[bvt1151]

Butrell is not who makes the hiring policies. Comair mgmt never expressed a willingness to change the policy. Sure, Butrell can influence them, but if you want that done, you'd better negotiate with him. You are confusing Butrell with the people in Comair management who make the policies, and who won't change them.
Even General Lee understands when he said:

When Fred Reid and Fred Butrell talked to us in the ATL crew lounge a week or so ago, they both said that it was your policy and up to your management (MEC) to decide---they weren't going to force it on you.

Why don't you negotiate with Reid and Butrell to force it on our management? Or are you worried that you'll find out that the Freds have no interest in solving the problem for free?

Until you've done all you can for your own furloughs, I don't think you'll find the Comair pilots very receptive to the idea of compromising for your furloughs.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

bvt,

If it is, as you state, up to the guy three levels below the top, then your mec would have nothing to lose by writing a simple letter in support of it. That was all we asked. We never wanted you to "negotiate" anything, nor would you have had to sacrifice anything. And, if what you say is correct, it wouldn't have even changed anything. It would have cost nothing, and resulted in some much-needed goodwill between the pilot groups.

Just a simple statement of support. But that was too much to ask. And now some are surprised that Delta pilots no longer want us to hire cmr guys?

It's no skin off my back. I already got my dream job. I would imagine, however, that mr lawson's stance might end up harming the very pilots whom he is supposed to represent.

Feel free to disagree.

P.S.
Just for the record, we never asked the cmr pilots to "compromise" on a thing. It's a shame your group cannot make the same claim.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

9rj9,

thanx for returning the thread to its origional topic (or at least trying to). I guess we all got caught in the flame bait.

Mr. Mostellar:



What information do you have to substantiate that sentence? Comair management has never expressed a willingness to change their policy, unless something was negotiated in return. Comair has been asked to negotiate, not Delta.

I don't understand your statement. Please refer to my previous post and rephrase.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

In reply to Mr. Mostellar:

Thats a very strong statement! It does, however, explain the attitudes of the Delta pilots towards the Connection pilots. Without your intervention (scope), we would ruin the profession.

Starting to see what really makes DALPA tick, captainv?

It has nothing to do with individual pilots.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Bvt, is right on the three issues we asked for.

For those who don't remember, the issues are:

1. Relax scope
2. Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language that defines flying to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
3. Negotiate a plan for future integration seniority lists.

1 & 2 could easily be negotiated by your MEC. Why would we do that?

Would you accept a Date of Acquisition Staple to ensure 3?

DALPA was no idea how long management plans to furlough - they could be through, they could have 1,000 more planned. Any negotiations to mitigate the furloughs would be shooting in the dark.

You ask for much but offer little in return.

 

[General Lee]

Bill,

I highly doubt that Delta will furlough more unless there is a major terrorist attack on an airplane. SARS has not affected us and the airports are a lot more secure than pre-9-11. I don't see another War yet on the horizon, which is good. Believe it or not, they still have to go by our No Furlough clause---especially in quiet times.


BVT,

My whole point here is to express my displeasure with the Comair MEC for not allowing Delta Furloughs to your list without resigning their numbers at Delta. To say that Fred Butrell and Fred Reid are not purposely calling your Comair management and telling them to change the rules is ridiculous. It was my understanding that they were leaving it up to the separate managements to decide, and as Sleepy stated, the ASA management had asked the pilots before allowing it. If the Comair management did the same thing (which would likely occur) and the MEC said NO---then the result would be what we have today. Why would they say no when ASA said yes? As I said my point was to show my displeasure---and I can do it since this is a forum. There is really little else I can say or do to change it I guess, and a lot of Delta pilots will remember this treatment. Again, I have NO agenda. I am just one Delta pilot that is mad at this whole situation. I just don't think our MEC chair is going to go back and ask AGAIN----and that will probably translate into fewer jobs at Delta for Comair pilots who might desire them. That CRM problem Fred R and Fred B stated might be true. Too bad.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Bill,

I highly doubt that Delta will furlough more unless there is a major terrorist attack on an airplane. SARS has not affected us and the airports are a lot more secure than pre-9-11. I don't see another War yet on the horizon, which is good. Believe it or not, they still have to go by our No Furlough clause---especially in quiet times.


BVT,

My whole point here is to express my displeasure with the Comair MEC for not allowing Delta Furloughs to your list without resigning their numbers at Delta. To say that Fred Butrell and Fred Reid should call your Comair management and tell them to change the rules is ridiculous. It was my understanding that they were leaving it up to the separate managements to decide, and as Sleepy stated, the ASA management had asked the pilots before allowing it. If the Comair management did the same thing (which would likely occur) and the MEC said NO---then the result would be what we have today. Why would they say no when ASA said yes? As I said my point was to show my displeasure---and I can do it since this is a forum. There is really little else I can say or do to change it I guess, and a lot of Delta pilots will remember this treatment. Again, I have NO agenda. I am just one Delta pilot that is mad at this whole situation. I just don't think our MEC chair is going to go back and ask AGAIN----and that will probably translate into fewer jobs at Delta for Comair pilots who might desire them. That CRM problem Fred R and Fred B stated might be true. Too bad.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[captainv]

bvt1151,

>>I'll repeat what I've said before, when you've been at Comair long enough to see the trends, and have faith in the people around you, you'll understand our point of view. Unfortunately by that time, you (we) may be out of a job.

perhaps so. although if you're right, i'll be out of a job no matter what i believe. also, i never said i don't have opinions on things, but i did say i have an open mind. and i'm aware that i don't have all the facts on either side of these issues. as you say, that'll come in time. in the meantime, i'll try to see things from both sides.

>>Frankly the greatest threat to our job security isn't the economy, nor the threat of terrorism. The greatest threat to our job security comes from pilots within our very own company and union.

perhaps. but how concerned are we Comair pilots about the reduction in flying at Delta? you cited instances of similar situations at other airlines, and certainly that could happen here. but at the moment, as i've said, we're gaining planes/pilots/routes and they're losing planes/pilots/routes. looking at this dispassionately, the greatest threat to their job security is us, not the other way around. sure, we can blame it on management and say we have nothing to do with those decisions, but i think we'll be the first scream bloody murder if/when the situation reverses itself. it sounds like we're trying to prevent what we're doing to them today (even if unintentionally) from happening to us in the future. is that fair?

>>Fact is there are more Delta pilots who pay more money to ALPA than Comair pilots. When there is a dispute between the two, who do you think the union is going to support? That is why the Comair pilots are fighting to make the decisions concerning the Comair pilots future.

clearly that's a conflict of interest. surely ALPA will side with Delta, with 10,000 pilots paying much larger dues than 1,700 Comair pilots paying much smaller dues. so, we need a regional ALPA. but i doubt that a smaller pilot group would get equal representation with one so much larger. perhaps if all the DCI connection carriers were allied, instead of fractured.

as for the furloughs, why hasn't ASA experienced any of the dire consequences that have been listed here? obviously we wouldn't be able to hire a significant number of them, but even a few would be a symbolic gesture of support. i just think it's the right thing to do...

 

[surplus1]

Many of those hired received offers from more than one major. Plato and his team understood seniority very well and were
typically skeptical of anyone who was adamant about one major vs. another.

I don't really want to read anything into that but it sounds like you're implying that I might not "understand" seniority. If that is the case, I would be so bold as to venture that I know just as much about seniority implications as anyone at your airline, including the members of the team you referenced. Seniority wasn't the issue. My previous statement stands.

The Comair MEC certainly doesn't decide who's hired, but it did make it's position clear to management:

Did the Comair MEC in fact make its position clear to Comair management or did it make its position clear to your MEC Chairman? I think the latter is far more accurate. Comair management is undoubtedly aware that our MEC and your MEC do not agree on several issues. That however, is hardly "new" and is a condition that existed much before your ploy.

At its October meeting, the MEC passed a resolution directing the MEC Chairman to meet with the Comair MEC to pursue a reciprocal preferential hiring policy for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair and for Comair pilots at Delta. This week, MEC Chairman Capt. Will Buergey met with the Comair MEC Chairman in Cincinnati to discuss this issue further. The Comair MEC Chairman stated that his MEC administration does not support the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. ASA management, at the ASA MEC’s request, has already hired furloughed Delta pilots, who start at the bottom of the airline’s seniority list and retain their recall rights at Delta.
DALPA Code A Phone, December 5, 2002

Thank you for the quote from your internal propaganda machine. I've heard it before. Since you chose to publish it here, let me point out that it contains a patently false statement. This is the false statement: "ASA management, at the ASA MEC’s request, has already hired furloughed Delta pilots, ". The fact is that ASA management made its own decision independent of the ASA MEC, with respect to the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots and that decision was NOT made at the request of the ASA MEC. The ASA MEC merely went along with its mangement's decision because it was politically advantageous not to oppose it. Do you perhaps think that we of Comair do not know and communicate with the members of the ASA MEC?

This isn't the first time that your MEC has "disclosed" events to Delta pilots with healthy doses of political spin and it won't be the last. My MEC does the same thing and so does every other MEC. Let us not ignore the fact that the ALPA is first and foremost a political organization and MEC Officers and PR (communications) folks don't write or make "code-a-phone" announcements in a vacuum. Save that concept for the uninitiated.

Your highly touted "MEC resolution" directing the Delta MEC Chairman to "pursue a reciprocal preferential hiring policy for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair and for Comair pilots at Delta", was, IMO, itself a political ploy designed to "set up" the Comair MEC.

By the way, does your MEC resolution mention ASA also or just Comair? Why was your MEC resolution necessary at all? If your MEC Chair merely wanted the assistance of the Comair MEC Chair, why did he not just pick up the telephone and ask for it? Why the formal MEC resolution? Why the particular venue in which the resolution was first publicized? Wasn't the entire Comair MEC present at that same venue, along with the Delta MEC? How come you didn't find out what the position of the Comair MEC might be before the infamous "meeting" of the Chairs? What is the reason for all the "theatre" on the part of your MEC?

What "reciprocal preferential hiring policy" was your MEC Chairman directed to pursue? One that he doesn't have the power to make or deliver on? Do you not understand that we of Comair know that neither your MEC Chairman nor the entire Delta MEC can offer us preferential anything at Delta Air Lines without the consent of Delta management? Your alleged pursual and offer were both a sham.

If your MEC, the Delta MEC, cannot get Delta management to direct Comair management to hire furloughed Delta pilots, just how is your MEC going to get Delta management to provide "preferential hiring" to Comair pilots? Who do you people think you're dealing with, a bunch of kids? Get real man. If you want the assistance of Comair pilots/MEC in helping to encourage our Company to hire your furloughed pilots, then ask for it. Save the smoke and mirrors and put the real cards on the table. Don't come to us with an orchestrated scam designed to further your political interests. We really are not that naive.

Incidentally, since in everything else your official policy is to regard CMR and ASA in the same way that you regard ACA, SKYW and now CHQ, how come you're only asking Comair and ASA to hire your furloughed pilots? Why aren't you asking the rest as well? Should I assume that CMR/ASA really are different or would that be presumptious? "What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

Your MEC played its hand and my MEC called it. When you had to turn over your cards you didn't even have a pair. I'm sorry that your bluff didn't work. Not sorry for your MEC, but sorry for your furloughed pilots. They deserve help and they well might have had it, without the fanfare and the political shenanigins.

It's not an implication. The elimination of Scope will certainly destroy the profession.

Since it is not an implication, then it is a grossly misguided assumption. Who is trying to eliminate Scope? It certainly isn't anyone at Comair. You go ahead and make all the Scope you want to control YOUR work. When your scope pretends to include OUR work, you're out of line and become a predator. We will do whatever it takes to prevent you from "scoping" us out of our own work and transferring it to yourselves. What we do doesn't "belong" to you, period.

The key difference is that ALL Delta flying (Mainline, Express, Song, ASA, Comair, Skywest, etc.) falls under the scope provisions of Mainline.

Says who, you? What a surprise! Can I presume that is a statement you make totally devoid of prejudice? I have no doubt that's what you think and therein lies the problem.

Contrary to your opinion you do not "own" Delta's flying. It belongs to the Company. You have to negotiate for the part that you get and we have to do likewise. We are not attempting to negotiate for your part and you need to stop attempting to negotiate for our part. You cannot scope us out of existence merely because you want to do so. Why? Because we aren't going to allow that without a battle royal. Our livelihoods are just as important to us as yours are to you. We expect you to defend yours and you must expect us to defend ours. When you all stop trying to artificially alter the balance in your favor, there can be a meeting of minds.

If and when you want an agreement with us as to how the flying will be allocated to each of us by the Parent Company, then you will have to resolve that jointly with us and not unilaterally. Until you do, what's yours is yours and what's ours is ours. That means two things; 1) you stay out of the regional business and we stay out of the mainline business, and 2) You are not the sole arbiters of which is which. A constantly moving line defined exclusively by you is anathema to us. The days of your simply dictating whatever you please are either gone or numbered and the sooner you understand that concept, the better off we all will be.

I don't know that there will be 'concessionary bargaining' in the near term. If there is, your careers will more likely be used by managment to bargain against us.

Well sir, I hope you don't have to make any serious concessions. However, if past practice is any indicator of your intent, so far management has done more to protect our interests than you have. Maybe you've changed your ways and I just don't know it. I hope so, for I would much prefer to see us being able to work together with you than trying to walk the current tightrope between the lesser of evils. What you've shown us to date creates a pronouced reluctance, on my part, to holding my breath.

I sure don't want to argue or fight with you guys but line pilots aren't going to reslove their differences unless we can first, both of us, wade through the political BS and get to the core issues. We don't seem to be trying. Both sides are caught up in the political who said what game. I propose we try to get past that.

Fly safe.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

#1. All you had to do was make a statement saying you don't oppose the hiring of furloughed pilots.

#2. YOU are trying to eliminate scope. You may say you aren't, but that is exactly what your lawsuit is seeking. You can pull the wool over many people's eyes who don't have the motivation to actually read the suit, but it won't work for all of us.