Comair hires Delta pilots...

[FlyComAirJets]

I'm sure the Comair MEC's "epiphany" is on par with that of the Delta MEC's a decade ago for the rEAL Eastern pilots. How many did DAL hire again, about three?

Talk about pathetic pettiness. That defines it.

 

[FDJ2]

I'm sure the Comair MEC's "epiphany" is on par with that of the Delta MEC's a decade ago for the rEAL Eastern pilots. How many did DAL hire again, about three?

What you have failed to point out is that it wasn't the DAL MEC policy to support the exclusion of EAL pilots, whereas it was the CMR MEC's policy to support the exclusion of furloughed ALPA pilots without having them resign their seniority number. Why the sudden "epiphany" from the CMR MEC?

 

[737 Pylt]

What you have failed to point out is that it wasn't the DAL MEC policy to support the exclusion of EAL pilots, whereas it was the CMR MEC's policy to support the exclusion of furloughed ALPA pilots without having them resign their seniority number. Why the sudden "epiphany" from the CMR MEC?

FDJ2:
I don't think you'll ever get these guys to agree on it. The funny thing is, when I got hired at DAL, nobody ever asked me to resign my seniority number. My class of 30 included 2 US Airways pilots, 1 NWA pilot, and even 1 UAL pilot. I wonder if any of them were asked to resign their seniority with their previous carriers??
I don't think the CMR pilots will ever see just how far a little support, like ASA did, when all the poo poo hit the fan 3 years ago would have gone. You know, kid of like our support for them when they were on strike, and they way they paid us back for that support.
737

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Action speaks louder than words.

Yeah, the "official" policy was to support the hiring of Eastern pilots (there was even an official looking resolution -- BFD) but what was the actual result? Thousands of Eastern pilots were looking for jobs and according to one of our rEAL pilots here at Comair, DAL hired all of three. Doesn't really amount to much does it, and one of those three was a SCAB to boot! I'm sure you two had many more qualifications than those unfortunate souls -- lots more DC-9, B-727, Airbus, and L-1011 heavy time. But for some mysterious reason, they weren't hired. Wonder what the problem was? How come there wasn't a single Eastern pilot in your new hire class, 737pylt, not one?

So it really doesn't matter what the policy was, MEC's don't do the hiring, the company does.

By most accounts, ASA has hired less than two dozen furloughed DAL pilots. That is less than two percent of the entire group. If all we are talking about hiring is a couple dozen pilots, then I guess this is much ado about nothing. I believe many more would like to come to Comair because I have talked to a Comair flight ops secretary that had taken many, many former pilots' calls after they were furloughed.

Resigning your seniority number is a recent phenomena at Comair. I wasn't asked to resign mine from my former employer (heck, they recalled me during training). It only dates back a few years, ask any four or five year Comair pilot if he/she was even asked to resign their seniority number. That was company policy imposed by Comair management (who does the hiring) who are under the control of guess who? Drumroll please, DELTA!

If the Comair MEC has committed some heinous act against furloughed pilots, then I would have to say the DAL MEC in essence did the exact same thing against Eastern pilots a decade ago. Same result.

Some support, after scoping the krap out of us with your Y2K Contract, you literally walked around our picket lines thus ensuring Delta could keep right on operating during our strike. I wouldn't beat my chest too hard on that one.

 

[FDJ2]

FlyCMR, boy you really have to dance around the subject don't you? Yeah we really scoped the the crap out of you. Geez, you've only experienced 85% growth since your acquisition and you could have had more if you were competitive. Oh and that little jab about walking around your picket line, even though you would not be able to come up with one flight operated by DAL pilots that flew struck work. Pretty pathetic, but consistent with the empty rhetoric, falsehoods and twisted reasoning required of an RJDC supporter.

 

[737 Pylt]

So it really doesn't matter what the policy was, MEC's don't do the hiring, the company does.

I don't think you get my point. I never said that YOUR MEC does the hiring. All I said is that a little support would have gone a long way! Your MEC publicly said that the hiring of furloughed DAL pilots would have created a "safety" issue! Then you have pilots telling us they would "burn the house down" if furloughees were hired! It really doesn't matter any more, as it is a mute point at this time!

Some support, after scoping the krap out of us with your Y2K Contract, you literally walked around our picket lines thus ensuring Delta could keep right on operating during our strike. I wouldn't beat my chest too hard on that one.

YGTBSM! Scoping the crap out of you??
We have the most liberal scope of any airline out there! more than 49% of our flying is outsourced, by our own doing, and you say that you are being scoped?!?! C'mon man, get real. How many have ASA/CMR hired at the same time mainline pilots being put on the street??
As far as your strike, I sent in my assessment checks, supported you guys, and would have gladly waked the picket line with you had I lived in or near CVG! I know many who did walk the picket line in MCO and CVG!
737
not beating my chest too hard!

 

[Bill Mostellar]

No, I'm Douglas Taylor!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

The truth hurts.

Funny, you both won't answer the Eastern questions and I'm the one dancing around the subject? You still haven't answered the questions! Too close to home, I figure. I'll ask it again, how come there are no Eastern pilots at Delta?

"A little support would have gone a long way." Towards what end? Like for the Eastern pilots, a little support to hire three pilots at Delta or twenty DAL furloughees at ASA? What is the point of that? Should not it have been many more?

Then 737Pylt swings for the fences by saying, "As far as your strike, I sent in my assessment checks ..." because it was mandated by the union. Failure to pay the assessment is grounds for explusion from ALPA. You did not do it out of the kindness of your heart, you did it because you were told to. One of the longest threads on the ALPA board during the strike was The RJDC and My Assessment Dollars where you guys were screaming bloody murder about a prophetic little lawsuit that you still don't understand.

But then it gets better, " supported you guys, and would have gladly wa[l]ked the picket line with you had I lived in or near CVG! (emphasis mine) Let me get this right, you work for an airline that just so happens to have hubs at not two but three of the the airports we were picketing. Guess you never heard of Atlanta? Oh that's right, Delta pilots never fly through Atlanta. I have some nice pictures of ASA pilots who joined us there. You must have been real busy, 89 days spent avoiding all those hubs, it must have been exhausting.

You must have a real set of blinders on to say that your wonderfully contrived scope clause, courageously engineered during our strike, hasn't been limiting We hit the flying percentage ratios this summer and this fall we will hit the 57 RJ70 limit. The growth of DCI post 9/11 has been despite your continued efforts to limit us. ASA and Comair could have hired EVERY single furloughed Delta pilot and still had to hire off the street or from the Academy. Instead, in true target fixation-style, you will undoubtedly stick to this flawed plan and limit your own furloughees approaching their third year in exile.

"I know many who did walk the picket line in MCO and CVG!" Must be like, 'No but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.'

 

[737 Pylt]

More rjdc rhetoric!

FLY comair jets:

OK, lets start with EAL pilots.
I can't answer that one, cause I wasn't on the property when that happened!
Flame away on that one

Next you said:
"A little support would have gone a long way." Towards what end? Like for the Eastern pilots, a little support to hire three pilots at Delta or twenty DAL furloughees at ASA? What is the point of that? Should not it have been many more?
Where guys want to work on furlough is their choice. ASA's MEC was kind enough to offer support for our furloughees, CMR's wasn't. The EAL issue, sorry, I wasn't on property, and for me to comment, I can't give you an honest answer! However, I'm sure you have some sort of rjdc spin to add to it!

Now your strike. I said I didn't LIVE, LIVE in a city where CMR was picketing. OK, do you have your selective (rjdc tuned) hearing aids turned off now. I know that you can't spin this to your rjdc liking, but my post said I would have walked the picket line if I LIVED near a cmr city.
Then FLY CMR JETS says he has some nice pics of ASA guys walking the picket line in ATL. That's great pal, I got some nice pics of DAL pilots walking the picket lines in MCO!

Next fly cmr jets puts his typical rjdc spin by saying this:
The growth of DCI post 9/11 has been despite your continued efforts to limit us.
LIMIT you HOW?? Are you that blind?? Obviously you areThere has been an unprecedented growth at the commuters, and you sit there and say that we have tried to limit you. I ask you again, is there another carrier with a more liberal scope clause than that of Delta?? you can't, because you and your rjdc pals have to try to twist the facts, lie and come up with bs answers to keep up your moronic fight!
737
No wonder why there is such hatred among the pilot groups!

 

[DL_Infidel]

Funny, you both won't answer the Eastern questions and I'm the one dancing around the subject? You still haven't answered the questions! Too close to home, I figure. I'll ask it again, how come there are no Eastern pilots at Delta?

Whether they reply to your question or not, you will bash them for whatever answer they provide and put an RJDC spin on it. You should direct your question to a more senior member of the DL pilot group....we've been at DL for less than 5 years, long after Eastern's days.

"A little support would have gone a long way." Towards what end? Like for the Eastern pilots, a little support to hire three pilots at Delta or twenty DAL furloughees at ASA? What is the point of that? Should not it have been many more?

Towards this end: it would have given you the same courtesy we've extended to the ASA pilots when DL hires again. Now, myself and many others will do what we can to keep Comair pilots off our seniority list (definitely a safety issue). The "silent majority" should have spoken out against your MEC's policy regarding Delta furloughees and the RJDC.

Then 737Pylt swings for the fences by saying, "As far as your strike, I sent in my assessment checks ..." because it was mandated by the union. Failure to pay the assessment is grounds for explusion from ALPA. You did not do it out of the kindness of your heart, you did it because you were told to. One of the longest threads on the ALPA board during the strike was The RJDC and My Assessment Dollars where you guys were screaming bloody murder about a prophetic little lawsuit that you still don't understand.

Wow, you must be omniscient...no one knows what motivates people to do things. Do I stop at a red light because I might get a ticket, or because I might get people killed? Don't you mean pathetic lawsuit? Most of us understand the long term ramifications for this profession IF this lawsuit succeeds. Most of us understand that you want to fly 300 seat jets (insert your preferred configuration here) for poor compensation. Most of us understand that there will be more furloughs and they will stay out longer if the court sides with Dan Ford.

But then it gets better, " supported you guys, and would have gladly wa[l]ked the picket line with you had I lived in or near CVG! (emphasis mine) Let me get this right, you work for an airline that just so happens to have hubs at not two but three of the the airports we were picketing. Guess you never heard of Atlanta? Oh that's right, Delta pilots never fly through Atlanta. I have some nice pictures of ASA pilots who joined us there. You must have been real busy, 89 days spent avoiding all those hubs, it must have been exhausting.

So helping to pay your mortgage and groceries wasn't enough for you? Your right, I should have given you the keys to the Ferrari and the estate (the lads are mine though).

You must have a real set of blinders on to say that your wonderfully contrived scope clause, courageously engineered during our strike, hasn't been limiting We hit the flying percentage ratios this summer and this fall we will hit the 57 RJ70 limit. The growth of DCI post 9/11 has been despite your continued efforts to limit us. ASA and Comair could have hired EVERY single furloughed Delta pilot and still had to hire off the street or from the Academy. Instead, in true target fixation-style, you will undoubtedly stick to this flawed plan and limit your own furloughees approaching their third year in exile.

"I know many who did walk the picket line in MCO and CVG!" Must be like, 'No but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.'

Scope is good. Ours just got too liberal. Your division of "the Delta Nation" reaped and continue to reap the rewards of that 49%. So I don't know what's bothering you. Actually I have an idea, but that's not my field of expertise.

Cheers.

 

[FDJ2]

Funny, you both won't answer the Eastern questions and I'm the one dancing around the subject?

The Eastern question, I didn't think you actually had one other than an unsubstantiated charge. The DAL MEC has always supported the hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots, as is ALPA policy in the ALPA Administrative manual and the DAL MEC never supported a policy that would exclude ALPA pilots from hiring on at DAL or requiring the resignation of their seniority numbers. The same can not be said for the CMR MEC. DAL does not require furloughed pilots to resign their seniority number. Now go back to your RJDC spin room and dream up some more spin.

 

[FDJ2]

"As far as your strike, I sent in my assessment checks ..." because it was mandated by the union. Failure to pay the assessment is grounds for explusion from ALPA. You did not do it out of the kindness of your heart, you did it because you were told to.

Wrong again, strike benefits are not a right, they are voted on and authorized by your fellow ALPA pilots. If your fellow ALPA pilots had not willingly voted to approve early strike benfits (which were not available to mainline pilots at NWA) and extended benefits, you would have gotten zilch. How did you think those strike benefits were authorized in the first place?

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Actually, I believe it was the Executive Council who decided on when and if there were to be strike benefits and whether to levy an assessment. Failure to pay one's assessment results in a member going into Bad Standing. An ALPA member can be expelled for being in bad standing after a period of time. To use the word "mandate" may have been too much of a leap for you, sorry.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Check the numbers.

The Eastern question, I didn't think you actually had one other than an unsubstantiated charge. The DAL MEC has always supported the hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots, as is ALPA policy in the ALPA Administrative manual and the DAL MEC never supported a policy that would exclude ALPA pilots from hiring on at DAL or requiring the resignation of their seniority numbers. The same can not be said for the CMR MEC. DAL does not require furloughed pilots to resign their seniority number. Now go back to your RJDC spin room and dream up some more spin.

Unsubstantiated charge? Then you tell me, how many Eastern pilots were hired at Delta? My source tells me it is three, what do you come up with? Ever met one or two or three? Doesn't that seem the least bit strange?

I think it is important because it gets to the heart of the matter. You say that the DAL MEC has always supported the hiriing of furloughed pilots. Then why, in the dozen years since Eastern's demise, aren't there any except for a handful? What good is this policy if the net effect is near zero?

Comair has hired many pilots over the years, on that we agree. One of their successful hiring practices is that they liked to hired former Part 121/135 scheduled carriers (they liked to hire chopper pilots, too), I was in that group. Off and on they have had a No Rehire Policy but up until recently, I thought it was gone. We had one pilot who hired at Comair twice and then go to America West twice when he got recalled. They never asked any of us to resign our seniority, that would be ridiculous and a deal breaker for those hoping to go back to their original carrier. It's tough enough to have to go back down the career ladder but to expect one to stay there and give up any hope of return is crazy.

Something changed Comair management's hiring practices and it was not the Comair MEC. In a similar vein, the DAL MEC Eastern support policy was viewed as irrelevant by DAL management. I suspect that DAL management WHO DID THE HIRING ignored the DAL MEC policy and chose to deliberately not hire Eastern pilots. Is that the DAL MEC's fault for looking the other way? I would imagine your answer to be certainly not.

My conclusion is that management is primarily responsible for this. Yelling at the respective MECs only highlights factionalism. The actions of both our MEC's had little bearing on whether Eastern pilots were hired at Delta, or Delta pilots were hired at Comair. If, on the other hand, you believe the Comair MEC is responsible for no DAL furloughees being hired, then you have to accept that the DAL MEC is accountable because they did nothing for the Eastern pilots except produce a silly of paper. Same result.

 

[FDJ2]

Unsubstantiated charge? Then you tell me, how many Eastern pilots were hired at Delta? My source tells me it is three, what do you come up with?

It is an unsubstantiated charge because it has no basis in fact. Your charge is that somehow the plight of EAL pilots is the fault of the DAL MEC, that is patently untrue. The DAL MEC has not supported any obstacles to the hiring of EAL pilots as you insinuate, on the contrary, the same can not be said of the CMR MEC. I suspect that the stench coming from the CMR MEC and the rejected and bitter lifers, who supported placing obstacles in front of furlough ALPA pilots, must have finally been too much to bear for the junior CMR pilots, thus the recent flip flop on CMR MEC policy.

Furthermore, has your source cross referenced the names of over 12000 DAL pilots who have been on our list since EAL's demise against the EAL seniority list? I doubt it.

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, I believe it was the Executive Council who decided on when and if there were to be strike benefits and whether to levy an assessment.

There were two votes, one by the Executive council, comprising the elected leadership of the various pilot groups, and then later membership ratification for extended benefits from all ALPA pilots. Support for the CMR strike assessment was overwhelming in both the Executive Council and the membership ratification votes. Your fellow ALPA pilots were generous indeed, voluntarily electing to give you a generous strike benefit that was not available to the NWA pilots.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Not quite right. The NWA strike lasted approximately two and a half weeks. Just as the strike was settled, the Executive Council was voting to grant benefits. The "waiting period," for lack of a better term, was the result of the Eastern strike for which many of us old heads were assessed. Seems the thinking at the time was that immediate benefits were perhaps too generous and that pilots should feel some of the pain as an incentive. If you'll recall, Eastern captains were paid a generous $4000/month, first officers $3000/ month, and second officers $2000/month. That was in 1991 dollars. This removed the incentive to cross the for financial reasons or so they thought, although I am sorry to say that many did it anyway.

As the Eastern strike wore on, apparently ALPA had a change of heart. If memory serves me, the Eastern MEC Chairman was removed and still they were, along with the Machinists' Charlie Bryan, unwilling to settle. Pilots needed to feel some pain it was felt or they would never be induced to settle.

Comair pilots were paid in the 17 hundred dollar range. That was is 2001 dollars. The Executive Council vote was to remove the "waiting period" and the before mentioned benefits were paid several weeks into the strike. For that I was grateful, make no mistake.

If the NWA strike would have lasted much longer, we would have gladly paid our assessments. And no I certainly don't bring up assessment history with Eastern pilots or Continental pilots for their assessment either as you seem prone to.

 

[FDJ2]

FlyCmr, that was a good review, I mean it, but the point was that the ALPA Administrative Manual does not allow for "early" strike benefits for NWA pilots or other "mainline" pilot groups if they go on strike, but it does allow for early benefits for CMR pilots and similarly situated pilot groups. It's a little extra special help. I also remember a membership ratification vote of all ALPA pilots to extend the original strike benefits authorized by the EC giving the CMR pilots extended benefits. The membership ratification vote also passed overwhelmingly.

 

[FlyingSig]

FWIW... the most senior person in my DAL newhire class is an ex-Eastern pilot (That makes 5% of my class ex-EAL, for those that like demographics and such).

But he's furloughed now too....

 

[FDJ2]

FWIW... the most senior person in my DAL newhire class is an ex-Eastern pilot (That makes 5% of my class ex-EAL, for those that like demographics and such).

But he's furloughed now too....

And I suppose he was denied the opportunity to fly for CMR unless he resigned his recall rights at DAL, as is CMR policy, a policy that was supported by the RJDC and the CMR MEC.