Comair Firing

[PCL_128]

No need to change anything. Article IX Section 7c of the CB&L Says it all:

C. Assessments may be levied on the members in the employ of any airline by the respective
Master Executive Council to cover extraordinary expenses for any strike or other benefit purposes,
and for any other lawful trade union purpose, by a majority vote by secret ballot of the members of
such Master Executive Council, or by a majority vote of the valid ballots returned of the membership
of such airline voting in a membership referendum conducted by secret ballot under Association
Voting Procedures.

They had a choice, and they chose not to put it to a vote because they were afraid the pilots would shoot it down with the lack of information they were, and still are presenting.

Which is exactly why you need to change your MEC policy manual to require your MEC to send this sort of thing to a vote. Don't give them a choice next time.

 

[wmuflyguy]

No need to change anything. Article IX Section 7c of the CB&L Says it all:

C. Assessments may be levied on the members in the employ of any airline by the respective
Master Executive Council to cover extraordinary expenses for any strike or other benefit purposes,
and for any other lawful trade union purpose, by a majority vote by secret ballot of the members of
such Master Executive Council, or by a majority vote of the valid ballots returned of the membership
of such airline voting in a membership referendum conducted by secret ballot under Association
Voting Procedures.

They had a choice, and they chose not to put it to a vote because they were afraid the pilots would shoot it down with the lack of information they were, and still are presenting.

Well they need to change it to they must put it to a vote. Unfortunately, they didn't do anything wrong according to the quoted by-law.

The merger assessment fee was a silly idea and if our MEC pursues a merger of seniority lists (as is hinted by a couple union people I have flown with) it isn't going to turn out good for us.

 

[CFIT]

ALPA, what a f * cking joke!

Taking in millions of dues money to give to few is simply criminal!

 

[DX Rick]

This whole thing is very fishy.
About one month before this fee was jammed down the pilot groups throat, rumors started floating around about a credit card bill. A credit card bill that was run up by our previous MEC Chair, in the 6 figure range and that the Union wasn't going to pay it. In this rumor, Union reps were heard saying that the pilot group will pay it off in a way to say "Thank You" to his hard work.

Next thing we know, we're being told that we have no choice in paying this $20/mo "Merger Assesment Fee" that National has recommended we do. In the end, the total ammount they want to collect in this fee is VERY close to the ammount of this credit card bill our former MEC Chair rang up.
According to a letter our MEC sent our, National urges the CMR pilot group to pay into this fee to protect themselves in the event of a merger. But why isn't National telling any other pilot group to start paying Merger Assesment Fee's? Is it because National only cares about the Comair pilot group? or is it because National isn't paying off a credit card bill ran up by our former chairman? You be the judge.
I just know when in the hotel vans, other crews ask about the fee, followed up with "That's the biggest joke!" .....yes, yes it is.

Last I heard, 44% of the pilot group is in bad standing because they haven't paid at all or some of the bill. that speaks volumes of what the pilot group thinks of our MEC.
I recently flew with a rep and he told me that they're considering raising the fee to make up for the guys who haven't been paying in. I guess they don't realize that even less people will pay now.

 

[CEO silly sap]

You comair pilots are afraid to act, it has nothing to do with ALPA or your MEC. It has everything to do with lack of effort on your part. Case in point, this post was started by a friend of someone who is getting a letter, not the actual person.

 

[flyboyike]

You comair pilots are afraid to act, it has nothing to do with ALPA or your MEC. It has everything to do with lack of effort on your part. Case in point, this post was started by a friend of someone who is getting a letter, not the actual person.

Are you suggesting Comair pilots should round up the MEC in a dark alley somewhere and beat them to a pulp?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Are you suggesting Comair pilots should round up the MEC in a dark alley somewhere and beat them to a pulp?

Sounds like a good start!

Case in point, this post was started by a friend of someone who is getting a letter, not the actual person.

CEO...not everybody is a member of the prestigious FI.com club

 

[JoeMerchant]

The fact that we have to pay for our own outside legal counsel to defend our interests when we merge with our "brothers".....speaks volumes as to what a scam this so-called "union" is....

Find out how many CMR pilots are in "bad standing" and organize together....It will be entertaining watching ALPA try to fire hundreds of their own members....They won't want the bad press and I bet something will be done....

 

[damnflyboy]

Good luck guys. I don't wish that on anyone.

 

[Hovernut]

The fact that we have to pay for our own outside legal counsel to defend our interests when we merge with our "brothers".....speaks volumes as to what a scam this so-called "union" is....

You've got that right, Joe. I've been paying up, but thinking WTF along those lines!!

Owned by the same overseer....in the same union...WTF is the problem, over?

 

[N2264J]

The fact that we have to pay for our own outside legal counsel to defend our interests when we merge with our "brothers".....speaks volumes as to what a scam this so-called "union" is...

When the Comair and ASA MECs got together to confer on a single list, it took a few minutes to agree on DOH then we spent the rest of the afternoon at the bar.

Unfortunately, we didn't belong to a national union that could force the issue.

 

[WayBack]

You've got that right, Joe. I've been paying up, but thinking WTF along those lines!!

Owned by the same overseer....in the same union...WTF is the problem, over?

Wow, you're showing them, aren't you!? Do you wear high heels? "Hey guys. I just want you to know that this fee is making me think WTF. I just wanted to let you know that! Oh, and here is my $20! Sorry I was late with the fee, did I mention those are the most awesomest loafers you're wearing? And one last thing. The mustache is filling in nicely, you could so pass as an ALPA Chairman."


You don't agree with it, don't pay it.

 

[AvJunke]

With a money back guarantee, why would you not want to be ready to protect your job and seniority should there be a merger? Would you be the same pilot that would be whining when the merger happens and you don't have adequate protection because you did not have a fund setup to pay legal fees to protect your job? Pay the money--it's cheap insurance!

This is just a naive viewpoint. The Comair union will have no ability to dictate job allocation/protection in the event of a merger between the subsidiaries.

 

[N2264J]

Wow, you're showing them, aren't you!?

You don't agree with it, don't pay it.

Just curious, how's your life going so far?

Does it seem like the IRS is always after you?

The law?

 

[DoinTime]

Are you suggesting Comair pilots should round up the MEC in a dark alley somewhere and beat them to a pulp?

Beat them to a pulp? No. Recall them? Yes. You only need two pilots that are in agreement to put a recall to vote at any LEC meeting.

Take control of your destiny....don't just sit back and b*tch about how others are screwing you.

 

[TristarJS30]

There actually was a recall on our MEC, or at least a meeting scheduled to deal with the suggested recall. Funny how things like that get stifled quickly and noone hears what comes of them...

 

[wmuflyguy]

There actually was a recall on our MEC, or at least a meeting scheduled to deal with the suggested recall. Funny how things like that get stifled quickly and noone hears what comes of them...

It was a recall of the LEC officers at the last meeting.

The results were in the meeting minutes email sent out by the MEC. The recalls failed.

The people who started the recall were suggesting paycuts for "job protection"

 

[TristarJS30]

Paycuts as lower line value or paycuts in the traditional sense?

 

[wmuflyguy]

Paycuts as lower line value or paycuts in the traditional sense?

From what I understood, both. Not that either is any different.

 

[SBD]

It was a recall of the LEC officers at the last meeting.

The results were in the meeting minutes email sent out by the MEC. The recalls failed.

The people who started the recall were suggesting paycuts for "job protection"

Last Cappy I flew with is on the board. It was like 107-24 or something in that range on the vote. He supported the RJDC and that was the end of any side conversations on our 3 day trip.

 

[Full of LUV]

What would have happened now?

When the Comair and ASA MECs got together to confer on a single list, it took a few minutes to agree on DOH then we spent the rest of the afternoon at the bar.

Unfortunately, we didn't belong to a national union that could force the issue.

Suppose ASA and Comair had merged lists back in the early 2000's, how would they have split it back apart 5 years later when Delta needed to sell ASA to raise cash?
Luv

 

[N2264J]

Suppose ASA and Comair had merged lists back in the early 2000's, how would they have split it back apart 5 years later when Delta needed to sell ASA to raise cash?

Why should a union fret about how the company is going to raise cash 5 years from now?

I suppose the company could sell the whole entity or not. If management decided to piece it out, ALPA has a fragmentation policy. But keeping the pilot groups separate for management's convenience and helping to promote whipsaw shouldn't be a union's charter unless, of course, you're ALPA.

The RJDC has been a voice in the wilderness on this for the last 10 years: When mainline scope is based on the exclusion of airframes instead of the inclusion of pilots, it's doomed to fail. Ask the junior Delta pilots how that Brand Scope is workin' out for 'em.

If you want to play around in hypothetical land, try to imagine the leverage the union would have if all brand flying was done by one seniority list. Oh wait, you don't have to. Southwest has one seniority list doing all the flying and industry leading rates. Coincidence?

 

[PuffDriver]

Why should a union fret about how the company is going to raise cash 5 years from now?

I suppose the company could sell the whole entity or not. If management decided to piece it out, ALPA has a fragmentation policy. But keeping the pilot groups separate for management's convenience and helping to promote whipsaw shouldn't be a union's charter unless, of course, you're ALPA.

The RJDC has been a voice in the wilderness on this for the last 10 years: When mainline scope is based on the exclusion of airframes instead of the inclusion of pilots, it's doomed to fail. Ask the junior Delta pilots how that Brand Scope is workin' out for 'em.

If you want to play around in hypothetical land, try to imagine the leverage the union would have if all brand flying was done by one seniority list. Oh wait, you don't have to. Southwest has one seniority list doing all the flying and industry leading rates. Coincidence?

Let's see where this misguided post fails the sniff test? Fragmentation within an airline is covered by each airline's CBA, not ALPA fragmentation policy.

How is Delta's scope working? Nobody on Delta's ls furloughed voluntarily. Cannot say that about Comair.

SWA DOES outsource flying.

You are not smart enough to be a union member. All you RJDC pikes can do is
:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

 

[PuffDriver]

The fact that we have to pay for our own outside legal counsel to defend our interests when we merge with our "brothers".....speaks volumes as to what a scam this so-called "union" is....

Find out how many CMR pilots are in "bad standing" and organize together....It will be entertaining watching ALPA try to fire hundreds of their own members....They won't want the bad press and I bet something will be done....

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

 

[N2264J]

Fragmentation within an airline is covered by each airline's CBA, not ALPA fragmentation policy.

Hidey ho, Poindexter!

Are you saying a mistake was made in naming Section 45 of ALPA's Administration Manual: Merger and Fragmentation Policy? Since it's an ALPA publication, I take your point.

SWA DOES outsource flying.

Southwest codesharing did not occur until after the SW pilots achieved their industry leading rates. Am I getting that wrong? If yes, my face is so red!

Nevertheless, when the Delta MEC threw the ASA and Comair pilots under the bus in 2000, management everywhere took notice and outsourcing became institutionalized as ALPA, "The Pilot's Union," signaled it wouldn't lift a finger to stop the whipsaw. Now, pilots throughout the industry are having to deal with it.

 

[Pilotbob3]

after paying 300 for a merger assesement in 2000. I am waiting for the 20 dollar check to arrive any day that is left over from the never used 300. uh huh!

 

[N2264J]

How is Delta's scope working? Nobody on Delta's ls furloughed voluntarily. Cannot say that about Comair.

Oh, I get it.

History in Poindexterland starts with the first Comair furlough and nevermind what could have been a displacement into the right seat of a Comair or ASA RJ for 1200 or so Delta pilots during the last downturn if the lists were merged in 2000.

Delta pilots hit the street while Comair and ASA together hired around 1200 new hires. Result: Delta pilots hate Comair pilots.

 

[PuffDriver]

Oh, I get it.

History in Poindexterland starts with the first Comair furlough and nevermind what could have been a displacement into the right seat of a Comair or ASA RJ for 1200 or so Delta pilots during the last downturn if the lists were merged in 2000.

Delta pilots hit the street while Comair and ASA together hired around 1200 new hires. Result: Delta pilots hate Comair pilots.

You skipped a few steps there, Poindexter. Let's fill in the blanks, shall we?

The RJDC is formed, claiming that the Delta MEC is "limiting" the careers of pilots. A PID is filed claiming sufficient operational integration between 3 carriers with completely different operations, missions, and aircraft. The PID is justifiably and correctly denied. The Delta MEC asks the Comair and ASA MECs about flow through and are vehemently turned away. C2K closes with unbelievable pay raises, QOL increases, etc--and more, larger jets for subsidiaries. Comair strikes, then caves with little to offer pre vs post strike. A little event called 911 hits. Delta furloughs, while Comair and ASA continue to hire--thus affirming that ALPA is limiting the careers of Comair and ASA pilots. Delta continues to furlough, illegally. Approximately 10 Delta furloughees elect to go the right seat at ASA. The rest do anything else--as it is more lucrative. The Delta MEC asks for the Comair MECs support in the hiring of Delta furloughees, and is refused. Delta loses the grievance process and a timetable is negotiated for the recall of furloughees. All furloughees are recalled much earlier than anticipated. The RJDC, caves and settles for just getting a memo. ALPA, the limiter of the Comair pilot career, continues to watch Comair hire. Delta hires massive amounts of ASA, Skywest, and Mesaba pilots. Delta hires a few pilots who have had strong ties to Delta and who are f/os. Gas spikes massively, putting the nail in the 50 seat coffin. 200 RJs to go away, most of which come from Comair--stemming furloughs. Merger with NWA airlines includes left seat protection at some subsidiaries in exchange for flow-up.

Delta pilots are not in need of right seats at Comair.

Delta pilot angst is with the RJDC, the true dividers in ALPA.

Back to your playpen, baby.

 

[Full of LUV]

Wow

You skipped a few steps there, Poindexter. Let's fill in the blanks, shall we?

The RJDC is formed, claiming that the Delta MEC is "limiting" the careers of pilots. A PID is filed claiming sufficient operational integration between 3 carriers with completely different operations, missions, and aircraft. The PID is justifiably and correctly denied. The Delta MEC asks the Comair and ASA MECs about flow through and are vehemently turned away. C2K closes with unbelievable pay raises, QOL increases, etc--and more, larger jets for subsidiaries. Comair strikes, then caves with little to offer pre vs post strike. A little event called 911 hits. Delta furloughs, while Comair and ASA continue to hire--thus affirming that ALPA is limiting the careers of Comair and ASA pilots. Delta continues to furlough, illegally. Approximately 10 Delta furloughees elect to go the right seat at ASA. The rest do anything else--as it is more lucrative. The Delta MEC asks for the Comair MECs support in the hiring of Delta furloughees, and is refused. Delta loses the grievance process and a timetable is negotiated for the recall of furloughees. All furloughees are recalled much earlier than anticipated. The RJDC, caves and settles for just getting a memo. ALPA, the limiter of the Comair pilot career, continues to watch Comair hire. Delta hires massive amounts of ASA, Skywest, and Mesaba pilots. Delta hires a few pilots who have had strong ties to Delta and who are f/os. Gas spikes massively, putting the nail in the 50 seat coffin. 200 RJs to go away, most of which come from Comair--stemming furloughs. Merger with NWA airlines includes left seat protection at some subsidiaries in exchange for flow-up.

Delta pilots are not in need of right seats at Comair.

Delta pilot angst is with the RJDC, the true dividers in ALPA.

Back to your playpen, baby.

Wow Puff, where were you during my college English Litt course, that was like war and peace in a paragraph.......

Only question I had wasn't the comair mec's opinion that the dal furloughees had to relinquish dal seniority to work there, unlike any other regional. When DALPA went to have the comair mec intervene they said too bad, so sad.
Luv

 

[PA44Jockey]

after paying 300 for a merger assesement in 2000. I am waiting for the 20 dollar check to arrive any day that is left over from the never used 300. uh huh!

Just curious, but wasn't that a different type of fund? I hear that wasn't a merger assesement, but something completely different.