Comair exit poll

[General Lee]

I see DW's "brand scope" is having it's desired effect. Duane and Fred have managed to divide the last remaining solidarity in ALPA. The CMR pilots are evenly split. The CMR MEC is split. The ASA and CMR MECs are split... and to top things off Fins and Surplus are sparing.

Folks what we have here is the final stage of ALPA's failure. If the CMR and ASA pilots can't keep it together, then there is no way that ALPA can put this genie back in the bottle.

"Collective bargaining" and "bidding" as independent contractors are incompatable. When will we learn? Watch for the trend to continue.

To my fellow ASA pilots who are so quick to judge the CMR pilots, I would simply ask that you let them make their decision and support them in whatever decision they make. They must do what is best for CMR, just as we must do what is best for ASA.

To those who want to lecture about "holding up the bar" and "defending the profession", maybe you are confusing ALPA with a trade union.

"Brand Scope" my A$$

The market is determining your pay, not ALPA. Quit crying. I wish ALPA would have "claimed" all multi-engine flying for the legacies back in the early 60's...... I also wish the Moon was made of cheese..... What else do you want Inclusive scope? You really whine a lot.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

WHAT!

Well, at least something good is coming of all this. The RJDC supporters are all at each other's throats. At least I can take solace in the breakdown of the RJDC.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The market is determining your pay, not ALPA.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General - do the math. The pay difference is not significant. This is not market driven, the only thing getting driven to market is the fattened up pigs at Comair. An airline with a gutless pilot group makes a better impression on Wall Street.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well, at least something good is coming of all this. The RJDC supporters are all at each other's throats. At least I can take solace in the breakdown of the RJDC.

This is not an RJDC issue and the RJDC effort will continue. If anything, the RJDC warned people that this could happen as a result of ALPA's representational failure.

Supporters like me are extreemly disappointed that supporters like Surplus 1 have turned their back on the issues that they proffered and supported. That does not change the fact that ALPA needs repair. If anything this horrible failure just illustrates the great need for reform.

 

[Flying Horses]

And as I have said in previous posts, I don't believe for a minute that we will get the airplanes if we say No. Fred can't reward us for telling him to pack sand. If I were on the outside looking in, I might feel as strongly as you did about this. At present, COMAIR has zero (0) growth airplanes on order and quite frankly that concerns me. Companies don't sit idle, they either grow or shrink.

Management does not "reward" pilots by buying new airplanes. They buy and aquire new aircraft in order to increase their revenues and profits, the more aircraft flying, the more money an airline makes (as long as there is demand for them). Delta has determined the demand and need for more regional jets, namely 70-seaters. They have already inked a deal with CHQ, allowing CHQ to operate 16 EMB 170's. These aircraft are to be put into service slowly over the next 2 years. This is all that CHQ can afford and logistically put into service. Also, there is a limit to how much flying can be flown for Delta because of their other airline affiliations. In other words, CHQ will not be getting any more jets for Delta for a while. Also, ASA has already got their allotment of orders and logistically cannot receive more at the present time. That leaves Comair. Delta needs Comair to operate more jets, and they will get them.

Comair can aquire new aircraft and will make a nice profit on each one they operate, no matter that the pilots make a little more than others. However, Delta/Comair have been trying to lower their labor costs for a long time, in order to make even more profit. Lowering the labor costs at Comair will, in turn, lower their labor costs at ASA and allow them to demand cheaper contracts from other airline partners.

A deal between Delta and Comair has probably been already made, just not made publicly, although Embraer's stock has already gone up due to an imminent order from Delta/Comair. But, before officially making this deal, they figure why not try to get concessions from the pilots (and FA's) first. They figure pilots will think in order to get new airplanes, they must lower their pay; in other words, fool them. Delta/Comair will get concessions, the planes will come, and everybody will be happy. This way Delta/Comair can kill two birds with one stone: They get new airplanes to increase their revenue, and get a lower labor cost structure from Comair and all their airline partners.

You state that companies don't sit idle, they grow. You're right, and Comair will grow because they are a critical part of Delta's system. Comair has had the highest paid pilots for a long time now, and has been receiving new aircraft and making a nice profit. Currently, they have no aircraft on order, and everyone else does, so logically it is Comair's turn. Delta wants more regional jets and needs Comair to fly them, thus they will get them. Delta is not going to just never allot more aircraft to Comair and allow them to stagnate and not be as profitable as they can be.

Don't you find it strange that Comair already has developed an exact timetable to get new jets? Bottom line, Comair is slated for new jets, and will get them in order to remain profitable to Delta, and they are just using this need for jets and have developed a timetable to trick Comair pilots into thinking they must take concessions in order to actually get them.

 

[InclusiveScope]

WHAT! ​

Comair pilots nuke the unity with ASA pilots and you say live and let live? Why do you hold Comair pilots to a different standard than the Delta pilots? You can blame ALPA, blame the Delta MEC, blame the Comair MEC ( ALPA will ), blame brand scope, blame the market -

At the end of the day if the Comair pilots ratify the agreement they own the agreement.​

The Comair pilots are responsible for their actions and if they agree with ALPA's representational and bargaining practice ( in cohoots with Delta management ) then I understand who is to blame.

The Delta pilots never promised us their unity. The Comair pilots did and the ASA pilots entered into a union. There is a reason why Benedict Arnold is hated and Lord Howe is an unknown.

Fins my good friend - I understand your frustration. CMR is not the first group to stop falling on their swords. Ask our PDT and ALG colleagues what their reward was for "holding up the bar" on the USAirways property? Ask our Air Wisc. and ACA colleagues what their reward was for "holding up the bar" on the United property? Ask the CCAir pilots what their reward was for trying to "hold up the bar"?

If the CMR pilots vote no and the aircraft come here to ASA, will you refuse to fly them?

Face it Fins, ALPA has lost it's bargaining power. Checkmate!

 

[InclusiveScope]

Well, at least something good is coming of all this. The RJDC supporters are all at each other's throats. At least I can take solace in the breakdown of the RJDC.

The RJDC predicted that ALPA's failure in scope policy would lead to this. I can tell you that the RJDC leadership is currently more unified than the ASA and CMR MECs.

Tell me PCL 128, how is DW's "brand scope" working for you all in the NWA family? As you can see by this thread, it is a dismal failure on the Delta/DCI property. Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.

 

[bvt1151]

The RJDC predicted that ALPA's failure in scope policy would lead to this. ... Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.

I agree entirely with what you're saying, however I think you should be careful not to start sounding like Boyd. He predicts that EVERYTHING could happen, so that he can always say he said it would happen.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Management does not "reward" pilots by buying new airplanes. They buy and aquire new aircraft in order to increase their revenues and profits, the more aircraft flying, the more money an airline makes (as long as there is demand for them). Delta has determined the demand and need for more regional jets, namely 70-seaters. They have already inked a deal with CHQ, allowing CHQ to operate 16 EMB 170's. These aircraft are to be put into service slowly over the next 2 years. This is all that CHQ can afford and logistically put into service. Also, there is a limit to how much flying can be flown for Delta because of their other airline affiliations. In other words, CHQ will not be getting any more jets for Delta for a while. Also, ASA has already got their allotment of orders and logistically cannot receive more at the present time. That leaves Comair. Delta needs Comair to operate more jets, and they will get them.

Flying Horse,
Do you think Delta management wants to reward the CMR MEC for saying "no" a third time? The first time was the strike. The second time was the RFP. This is the third time, and if Delta management gives in, it will be a huge victory for ALPA. I don't think management is bluffing. Whipsawing works - that's why they use it.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.

Pat yourselves on the back a little more could. That is like predicting and earthquake on the San Andreas fault line.

You guys never quit.