Comair / DL merger?

[brainhurts]

I think it is a great idea, as long as I get to bid JFK CRJ Capt, and move to Ozone Park, next to my JB buddies. We can all go to Yonkers for fun on Tuesday nights, and all hit on Je-Lo wannabees. Sounds Awwwwesome.


Bye Bye--General Lee

WTF? I detect sarcasm. Yonkers? Why not stay in the crash pad as the alpha male with 16 Je-Lo wannabees? I really do not like rap music but away from the wife and at the crash pad, I AM Mr. Bling Bling.
Word.

 

[Caveman]

DAL737FO,

You're mixing apples and oranges. Comair did not have a separate policy for DAL furloughees. It was the same policy that applied to every other airline. For some reason the DAL pilots thought it should not apply to them. That's apples.

Now for oranges. The DAL MEC offered some unspecified future hiring preference if the Comair pilots would lobby Comair management to relax the requirement for DAL pilots to resign their seniority in order to be hired. Quid pro quo, except there was no 'quo'. When the CMR MEC asked about the specifics there weren't any. IOW, there was no deal because there was no offer. Now you guys want to take that and declare we were against hiring DAL pilots. Our MEC actively lobbied management to give preferential hiring to ANY furloughed ALPA pilot which includes DAL furloughees. What else did you want them to do?

I know what it is and so do you but we've been tapdancing around it. The DAL pilots wanted their cake and to eat it too. You assumed you should have special treatment because we were all a part of the DAL family. Frankly, I would have been fine with that. What rubs some folks the wrong way is you guys basically demanded special treatment and you acted like you had some god given right to it because you were mainline and we were connection.
You guys wanted an exemption and you demanded we lobby on your behalf in return for some vague future hiring preference. When we pushed for specifics we were basically told to take it or leave it and if we left it your MEC would tell the world we were against hiring DAL pilots. Mission accomplished.

 

[Caveman]

To quote you from another thread: "Just because somebody heard that somebody had a guy on their jumpseat that was related to a girl that married a guy whose cousin worked the ramp at CVG and overheard a Comair Captain talking about it doesn't mean squat. "

If I told my Delta buddies that an unknown CMR pilot on the FlightInfo message board said he flew with a furloughed Delta pilot, would that carry anymore weight?

Along those lines, I am not going to accept the word of an unknown source on an internet web board. I tend to believe you, but absent an actual name of a Delta pilot hired at CMR, you still haven't proven a thing.

I do have a question for you, assuming CMR did ultimately hire a furloughed Delta pilot. You said there are valid reasons to make a pilot resign seniority. I don't disagree. But, the CMR MEC shot that argument right out the window when the reversed course and decided drop that requirement. Why the change?

The difference is I'm giving you first hand info. I was there. I'm not telling you about somebody I know who knows somebody who knows, etc, etc. This isn't heresay. It's first person eyewitness data. If you decide to pass it on to your buds at DAL then it's becomes heresay, but I'm talking directly to you and in that regard it's a first hand account.

I don't know why they changed course. I'm not here trying to defend the Comair MEC. God knows I have my own disagreements with the way they've acted on some things. I'm just trying to shed some truth on the urban myth that Comair pilots acted to stop DAL furloughees from getting hired.

 

[Caveman]

Michael707767 & DAL737FO,

Before we beat this thing to death let me tell you where I stood on this. I thought Comair should have hired the DAL furloughees without the seniority resignation. I don't think very many would have even taken the job because of the pay cut, but we were all part of DAL Inc. We lobbied to get preferential treatment for ALPA furloughees over non-ALPA. Why not DAL over non-DAL?

I didn't like the way either of our MEC's acted. Both of them were being petty IMO. They should have been working together. Our MEC should not have insisted on tit for tat and your MEC should have been less arrogant about the whole thing. It was a goat rope from the git go.

I just don't appreciate the onesided characterization and the rewriting of history. The Comair pilots were never against the hiring of DAL furloughees and we did nothing to hinder them getting hired and in fact at least a few were hired. What's being argued is whether or not the CMR MEC attempted to get an exemption for the DAL furloughees. Clearly they didn't, but that's a far cry from actively sabotaging them. We're guilty of not giving you special treatment. That's not the same as working against you.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The flame baiter continues on his trek!

Here's what they were saying about it in 2000.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=491

Can you find anything to do with your time except dig up old articles from almost 7 years ago?
You are a flaming jerk. Too bad you never will amount to anything but a flamebaiting ass!

 

[DAL737FO]

Caveman,

We will have to agree to disagree. You say it's revisionist history. I say the same thing. The bad blood is there regardless of who started it. I guess it shouldn't affect hiring of Comair pilots though because as it's been stated it's a management decision right?

 

[~~~^~~~]

A few years back I had a new hire doing jumpseat IOE at ASA. He was furloughed DAL. The kicker was he worked at Comair for 9 years and he had to come to ASA because Comair wouldn't rehire him.
FWIW.

We have flown a month or two together and he is an excellent pilot with a great attitude (despite the Delta crap). Any airline would be lucky to have him.

Regardless of the past, if Delta and ALPA have a chance to fix this mess while benefitting the Company and the employees - why not? It makes a lot more sense than a US Air / DL merger.

 

[737 Pylt]

We have flown a month or two together and he is an excellent pilot with a great attitude (despite the Delta crap). Any airline would be lucky to have him.

Regardless of the past, if Delta and ALPA have a chance to fix this mess while benefitting the Company and the employees - why not? It makes a lot more sense than a US Air / DL merger.

See, there are certain things we can agree on!

737

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

And just exactly where in any of this is any indication that Comair pilots were against the hiring of specifically DAL furloughees? The company had a policy of requiring seniority resignation for ANY furloughed pilot and our MEC agreed with that policy. It was never clear to me why you guys ever thought the policy shouldn't apply to you. There are legitimate reasons why seniority resignation makes sense. There is a conflict of interest when a pilot has two girlfriends. DAL pilots wanted an exemption and they demanded the Comair pilots get it changed or else. I don't see NWA or LCC furloughed pilots blackballing Comair pilots. What's the difference?

Lawson signed this POS...not management...the buck stops with the pilots...plain and simple...........

ALL Comair pilots can go pound sand if they want my finacial support or shoe leather to help them with their cause.....

They turned their back on their union members when they needed help the most!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Now Bill:

The Delta MEC wanted a cram down. Lawson said we need "brand scope," lets see if we can work something out that benefits both of us. The Delta MEC said cram down, no quid pro quo and threatened to blackmail Lawson with the failure to hire DAL furloughees. It was pure Delta MEC arrogance - they were COMMANDING a subordinate to accomplish a task. Lawson, an ALPA EVP tried to get something accomplished to benefit both sides, but the arrogance and immaturity of the Delta MEC resulted in mutual harm.

Each MEC Chairman's threats came true. Comair management stood on their "no hire without seniority resignation" policy and Comair's airplanes have started being transferred, while the blackmail has tarnished the image of all Comair pilots.

And I ask you, how does it benefit Delta pilots to continue this policy of hating DCI pilots?

All ALPA members have more to gain by working together. Instead you are holding on to errors in the past. Let it go, lets move forward, together....

If Delta and Comair worked together it would probably be the end of us here at ASA - but I would cheer the ALPA's unity as I found another job, if it came down to that.

 

[Comair49%er]

Fact, it was Comair management's policy that required the resignation of seniority numbers. However, our MEC looked the other way and did not try to get the policy changed, until down the road. In 03 or 04 (can't remember) Comair did hire some Delta pilots and did not make them resign there seniority. I have flown with one myself. The number I heard was Comair only hired a handful. It's a lot of BS and politics.

 

[FDJ2]

Fact, it was Comair management's policy that required the resignation of seniority numbers. However, our MEC looked the other way and did not try to get the policy changed, until down the road.

Fact, the CMR MEC fully supported managements policy to deny employment to furloughed ALPA pilots.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Now Bill:

The Delta MEC wanted a cram down. Lawson said we need "brand scope," lets see if we can work something out that benefits both of us. The Delta MEC said cram down, no quid pro quo and threatened to blackmail Lawson with the failure to hire DAL furloughees. It was pure Delta MEC arrogance - they were COMMANDING a subordinate to accomplish a task. Lawson, an ALPA EVP tried to get something accomplished to benefit both sides, but the arrogance and immaturity of the Delta MEC resulted in mutual harm.

Each MEC Chairman's threats came true. Comair management stood on their "no hire without seniority resignation" policy and Comair's airplanes have started being transferred, while the blackmail has tarnished the image of all Comair pilots.

And I ask you, how does it benefit Delta pilots to continue this policy of hating DCI pilots?

All ALPA members have more to gain by working together. Instead you are holding on to errors in the past. Let it go, lets move forward, together....

If Delta and Comair worked together it would probably be the end of us here at ASA - but I would cheer the ALPA's unity as I found another job, if it came down to that.

I never said anything about DCI pilots.......love em all, whatever the name says on the side of the jet........except for the Comair types.........

As far as your attempt to rationalize a boot in the eye to the furloughees of Delta by highlighting the Delta MEC's "arrogance and immaturity" just speaks volumes about your ignorance of the situation......

 

[Comair49%er]

FDJ,
It seems to me you are not happy unless you are arguing with someone from Comair. Whatever floats your boat I guess. Cheers!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

It's a lot of BS and politics.

Well said........subjects far beyond our pay grade.....Comair RJDC types like to keep it up........It's real familiar to the Muslim community.........never say it's wrong, just rationalize the reasons for it...

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ,
It seems to me you are not happy unless you are arguing with someone from Comair. Whatever floats your boat I guess. Cheers!

Just setting your facts straight. The truth, after all, will set you free.

 

[Comair49%er]

Just setting your facts straight. The truth, after all, will set you free.

Touche', my friend.

 

[N2264J]

I didn't like the way either of our MEC's acted. Both of them were being petty IMO. They should have been working together. Our MEC should not have insisted on tit for tat...

One important aspect you may not be considering is the cost of the Delta MECs demand and who would be charged for it. In other words, changing an established company policy would cost the Comair pilots something out of their contract if, for no other reason, just to offset the CRJ training costs of furloughees, the backfill hiring and training required when they were recalled plus the schedule disruptions that Comair and its pilots would have to endure if dozens of furloughees were recalled at the same time. Thus the economic quid pro quo made by the Comair MEC - brand scope.

Since ALPA was conducting a covert war on the RJ airframe, brand scope gave way to the big smear.

Don't forget, the Delta pilots could have approached management and made this happen on their own (the DMEC actually adopted a resolution directing Chairman Buergey to explore it) but that would have cost something out of their own contract and they didn't want to go down that road.

 

[Pat Fabin]

Hey while we're having a nice love fest, what does it take for Comair pilots to realize its inappropriate to be hanging out in the LGA DELTA PILOTs lounge?

Getting sick of all the chairs being taken up by people that know they shouldn't be in there.

Back in my commuter days we would have NEVER done that...

 

[Nindiri]

Did you also walk 5 miles through the snow barefoot across the ramp just to get to your airplane back in your commuter days, gramps?

 

[Pat Fabin]

Yeah and my Captains made me hand-prop the 1900 too.

 

[Nindiri]

:d

....

 

[stratus72]

At Comair I flew with 2 furloughed Delta pilots. Yes, I have names. No, w/o permission I'm not going to post them. No, they weren't ass (Freuadian slip), as pompous as the same handfull of Delta pilots who often post on this site.



Geeze..get over yourselves,

Stratus

 

[CarjCapt]

Fact, the CMR MEC fully supported managements policy to deny employment to furloughed ALPA pilots.

CMR management NEVER denied employment opportunity to any ALPA furloughed pilot!

And further more no MEC/LEC individual ever supported denying employment to any furloughted pilot either.

I was there and you weren't there and you DO NOT have the facts.

 

[737 Pylt]

CMR management NEVER denied employment opportunity to any ALPA furloughed pilot!

And further more no MEC/LEC individual ever supported denying employment to any furloughted pilot either.

I was there and you weren't there and you DO NOT have the facts.

Let me guess, you rode the short bus to school!
Last time I checked, DL was part of ALPA, or did you conviently forget that??
Here, let me refresh your memory!

TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: December 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

 

[FDJ2]

I was there and you weren't there and you DO NOT have the facts.

You are confused to say the least.

 

[CarjCapt]

You Sir, are the one confused! My statement still stands.

My CMR MEC or pilots never denied or encouraged denial of employment opportunity for ALPA (DL or others) furloughed pilots.

 

[clarkwgriswald]

Hey while we're having a nice love fest, what does it take for Comair pilots to realize its inappropriate to be hanging out in the LGA DELTA PILOTs lounge?

Getting sick of all the chairs being taken up by people that know they shouldn't be in there.

Back in my commuter days we would have NEVER done that...

Why don't you ask them to leave?

 

[CarjCapt]

Hey while we're having a nice love fest, what does it take for Comair pilots to realize its inappropriate to be hanging out in the LGA DELTA PILOTs lounge?

Getting sick of all the chairs being taken up by people that know they shouldn't be in there.

Back in my commuter days we would have NEVER done that...

In all the years going in and out of LGA never once did anyone say anything about us (CMR pilots and FA) waiting in the "Delta Pilots" lounge. As a matter of fact there were several times when we were invited to sit there. Just as you, if the roles were reversed, would be graciously invited to join us.

 

[Pat Fabin]

While there may have been a couple casual invitations in the past, I witnessed at least three separate crews casually using our lounge as if it was their own. Nobody invited them...they acted like it was an entitlement and business as usual. We have had many many regional crews flying for Delta out of LGA over the years but this is a fairly recent development. I realize Comair does not provide a lounge for you in LGA, but that is something for you to work out with your company. If we had a large facility there, I don't think anyone would mind. This lounge is hardly large enough for us already and the extra traffic and noise is not welcome. I don't think you'd want 100 DAL pilots hanging out in your lounge in CVG...thats a comparable example to the CMR presence in LGA. Mesa doesn't use our lounge...ACA never did. You should have your own area.

Many of us have voiced our objections through proper chanels...apparently your flight ops has been advised, but yet the situation continues. Delta put up a sign that says Delta Employees Only but nobody seems to notice or care.

I am sad to say that I never said anything at the time because I didn't think I'd be able to say anything that wouldn't elevate to an argument. Reality is much different than an anonymous bulletin board, perhaps I'll get the chance for a dialogue next time... or perhaps someone with more courage and tact than I will tackle the issue.

So when you have long sits in Detroit, do you hang out in the Northwest pilot lounge? How about the SWA lounge in Vegas? I thought not. Its not appopriate and you should not be there.