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Comair / DL merger?

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Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
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Someone suggested this another thread and got me thinking.... There are logical reasons this could happen and the reasons against it are mostly political. In favor:
  1. ALPA has been arguing operational integration in Court
  2. Delta's negotiated rates for RJ flying are low. Much lower than Comair's and perhaps lower than anyone else's
  3. ALPA is in litigation brought by Comair pilots which is nearing trial - this might be a fix.
  4. Merging the Comair pilots might serve as a "poison pill" against other predatory carriers looking to buy Delta in bankruptcy
  5. For Delta, it would be a easy paper shuffle, particularly if something like a staple was agreed to. Would not even require a certificate change.
  6. American, US Air, Frontier, United and Northwest either have seniority list pilots flying small jets on other certificates, or are planning to do so.
  7. Mainline pilots have flowed down, but there is no logical reason Delta could not pull a supercharged Ransome/Pan Am Express/Pan Am type deal.
  8. The market would probably like this logical consolidation and from an anti trust perspective, it is already a done deal.
  9. Delta has a large investment in Comair. Why flush it when you can work the 100 seat scope problem by making one list.
  10. ALPA has a new administration.
The future will probably have a number of fully integrated airlines operating their aircraft from 50 seats through to the 777's. With major costs reduced to parity with the small jet operators, the cost advantages of outsourcing to Republic, SkyWest, Mesa and others just does not justify the additional expenses of the triple redundant infastructure and certificates. Besides none of the alter ego carriers has the exact same level of control and customer service as the mainline carriers. Airplanes are expensive and ordering jets for two year RFP's is nuts. At some point, nutty capital expenditures have to carry a risk premium.

I see a lot of synergies here. Ok General and 737Pylt, I'm running to the bomb shelter - come and get me.
 
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Merging the Comair pilots might serve as a "poison pill" against other predatory carriers looking to buy Delta in bankruptcy


That's the most compelling reason you mentioned, although I doubt very much management will do it.

Whether or not CMR and DAL merge is a management decision and they are under no obligation to do so.
 
The biggest reason why it would never happen is you would have to "do it over General Lee's dead body". He alone would never let that happen.

In jest my friend.
 
As a furloughed Delta pilot that applied at Comair in 02, let me say dream on. I've heard we will start interviews again next year. Send in an app. I'm sure it will be given the same consideration mine was given at Comair...
 
I'm not a Comair pilot and don't care. Just making observations....
 
a done deal.
Delta has a large investment in Comair. Why flush it when you can work the 100 seat scope problem by making one list.
DL also had a large investment in ASA, and look at what happened. CMR is for sale, problem is, nobody wants them! GG has already stated that.

I see a lot of synergies here. Ok General and 737Pylt, I'm running to the bomb shelter - come and get me.
If JB is down there, when you come out, make sure he stays put!

737:D
 
Mr. ---^---,

Delta will hire in 2007. Why don't you interview? All the energy spent dreaming about "one list" would be much better spent polishing your personal interview skills.
 
As a furloughed Delta pilot that applied at Comair in 02, let me say dream on. I've heard we will start interviews again next year. Send in an app. I'm sure it will be given the same consideration mine was given at Comair...

Comair did hire furloughed DAL pilots. I flew with a furloughed DAL pilot at CMR.
 
Mr. ---^---,

Delta will hire in 2007. Why don't you interview? All the energy spent dreaming about "one list" would be much better spent polishing your personal interview skills.


I hope you are right..TWA and AMR comes to mind with the LCC offer for DL?
Makes sense to reduce capacity and strengthen market share by elimination..I hope not, good luck boys and girls!
 
As a furloughed Delta pilot that applied at Comair in 02, let me say dream on. I've heard we will start interviews again next year. Send in an app. I'm sure it will be given the same consideration mine was given at Comair...


Theres a whole bunch of DElta pilots at OH, even at the small GSO base there was a couple. Maybe your just an AS$WHIPE.
 
I think it is a great idea, as long as I get to bid JFK CRJ Capt, and move to Ozone Park, next to my JB buddies. We can all go to Yonkers for fun on Tuesday nights, and all hit on Je-Lo wannabees. Sounds Awwwwesome.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
I think it is a great idea, as long as I get to bid JFK CRJ Capt, and move to Ozone Park, next to my JB buddies. We can all go to Yonkers for fun on Tuesday nights, and all hit on Je-Lo wannabees. Sounds Awwwwesome.


Bye Bye--General Lee


As long as you stay out of South Ozone, Only the Blue dudes gets to pass Don Pepe's without paying for protection.

:beer:
 
Mr. ---^---,

Delta will hire in 2007. Why don't you interview?
I don't fly for Comair, this does not effect me. If FedEx, SouthWest, CAL and AirTran all tell me no, then I will consider DAL. The upgrade at DL for new hires will be forever, particularly if age 65 goes through in 2007.

I would like ALPA to get away from encouraging alter ego outsourcing.
 
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Good exerpts from 2000.

Just a reminder to everyone holding a career position better than someone elses. You are surrounded by assasins who will go to great extremes (including a court room) to get what you have, deserving, or not. Leap frogging to a seat or seniority position that they somehow have been unable to secure on their own. They stand nothing to lose, and everything to gain by employing such tactics.............. Pretty cool huh?


What career at DAL? Many of the pilots at the commuters don't meet Delta's (lowered) standards (e.g. college, Baptist, no Corvette <g> ), would Delta have to take every commuter pilot that walked through the door under your imaginary plan? Somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

Apply, interview and come in through the front door...

Having just spoken with a Delta 737 captain. To quote him verbatim: "They'll have to pry the gun away from my cold, dead hand before I let any regional pilot jump ahead of me in line after how hard I have worked to get here!"

I acknowledge that many of the regional pilots are highly skilled and professional, but do they really think Delta pilots are going to stand by and allow their list to be "infiltrated" by so-called "backdoor bandits" - quoting yet another Delta pilot. My bet is that the Delta pilots will quit ALPA before they allow that to happen.


Where do you put the military guy with 5000 heavy or jet hours, or someone leaving TWA, for example, with UMPTEENTHOUSAND jet hours?

No one in their right minds would put them below a new ERAU grad at the bottom of a stapled list. Like it or not, DAL, UAL, AA are looking for these people first and foremost. I know , I work with Recruitment occasionally. We'll take 757 PIC over EMB-120 P2 anytime. Fact: they're less likely to have a washout. Have a look at our last 3 year's hiring stats/ fails...what background/experience did they have? This is an extremely expensive business....The fact is, the military/other big jet guys& gals are a sure bet. No explaining to have to do to the Chief Pilot.....

The difficult thing is how to change from the present system to a One-List system. Pilots who have flown for the subsidiary for a long time might find it hard to accept that they'll join the tail end of the major's seniority list, while major's pilots find it unacceptable to have anyone jump ahead of them.

Recently, there was an ASA-type on the jump seat. There was polite discussion on the topic. Then a statement was made that he didn't like. We said (just to see his reaction) that many of the senior Delta F/O's may want to hop into the left seat of the RJ, thereby displacing some ASA/Comair Capt's down to the Brasilia, and the Brasilia Capt's down to the RJ F/O, etc. His response? "You can't do that!" Boy, he was beet-red with anger. Apparently it's only a good deal if it works their way. Funny thing, though. Before the ASA/Comair demand came about, I might have entertained the idea of some restricted type of farm program. Now? I don't even want to bring up the subject until after C2K has been completed. I simply won't allow the distraction; can't be bothered with it for the moment. They have, for the moment at least, lost an excellent, and very large ally.

You are asking DAL to hire you without the interview, physical and the rest of the dog and pony show required of the thousands of other applicants. Your imaginary "staple job" would give away the seniority of thousands of Delta pilots hired legitimately in the future. Delta has learned bitter lessons about the "I got mine, pull the ladder up, it doesn't affect me" attitude from the B-scale and the furlough. Once your staple job is done, your or your colleagues will sue to get your commuter date of hire at DAL, it's been done before, regular as clockwork.

If you're so sure you meet the standards, get an interview, get hired and staple yourself to the bottom of the DAL list like everyone else instead of demanding a handout...

How would you justify the windfall for the others near the bottom of the seniority lists at comair and asa? A Delta seniority number with 1000 hrs TT? Delta is hiring 75-80 pilots a month. In less than 3 years virtually every Comair/asa dude could be there, right?

Looking past my nose now, with hiring at most majors exceeding 75/month, it doesn't matter who you do or do not know,... be patient. Instead of predicting 130$/777 captain jobs. The ME generation in you is screaming loud and clear.

One BIG factor that may throw a wrench into management's plans to undermine mainline contracts with RJ's is a lack of airspace. Think it isn't a problem? Go visit your nearest ARTCC on a wx-cluttered day; they will show you that the RJ's are now causing delays to 777s et al, by occupying airspace previously unused by commuters.
30 pax going 200 miles delay and take a slot for 300 pax going 6000 miles. It makes no sense...
That same RJ, delayed on a gate, delivers 30 pax to spend money in the Terminal franchises; the same gate could deliver 300 spenders.....
The pilot unions, the ATC union, and the airport operators need to get together to stop this nonsense, and ensure that growth continues at the majors, thus providing you, Deltaconnector, with your hard-worked for big-jet career.
Yes, I know that airline managers say a lot of major growth is fuelled by RJ feed.....
I take it with a pinch of salt. Their big prize is destroying our contracts, and they would be prepared to subsidize RJ's at low altitude to achieve that , if necessary.
The RJ's are ONLY profitable because of lower pay scales.....
 
<<<<<Comair did hire furloughed DAL pilots. I flew with a furloughed DAL pilot at CMR.>>>>>

A few years after the 9-11 dust settled they did... Initially we were all told to go pound sand. ASA was kind enough to let some guys on-
 
Comair did hire furloughed DAL pilots. I flew with a furloughed DAL pilot at CMR.

Comair started hiring furloughed Delta guys after a couple of years AND after we started recalling. Here is the original reply to the request to hire furloughed Delta pilots without seniority list resignation.

TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATE:December 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in
Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY 41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

 
<<<<<Comair did hire furloughed DAL pilots. I flew with a furloughed DAL pilot at CMR.>>>>>

A few years after the 9-11 dust settled they did... Initially we were all told to go pound sand. ASA was kind enough to let some guys on-

Once again the propagandists have won. If you say something enough times it eventually becomes true. Comair pilots were never against the hiring of furloughed pilots whether they were DAL furloughed or any other airline. Comair MANAGEMENT had a policy of requiring seniority resignation from furloughed pilots before they would hire them. That provision applied to any airline, not just DAL. General Lee and the boys keep pounding the drum insisting CMR pilots were to blame and now people believe it. Goebbels would be proud of you.

I find it interesting that DAL pilots want to hold a management decision against the CMR pilots when it suits their agenda, but OTOH, they want amnesty from their managements decision to not offer reciprocal jumpseat agreements. Pretty inconsistent if you ask me.
 
The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.

And just exactly where in any of this is any indication that Comair pilots were against the hiring of specifically DAL furloughees? The company had a policy of requiring seniority resignation for ANY furloughed pilot and our MEC agreed with that policy. It was never clear to me why you guys ever thought the policy shouldn't apply to you. There are legitimate reasons why seniority resignation makes sense. There is a conflict of interest when a pilot has two girlfriends. DAL pilots wanted an exemption and they demanded the Comair pilots get it changed or else. I don't see NWA or LCC furloughed pilots blackballing Comair pilots. What's the difference?
 
Once again the propagandists have won. If you say something enough times it eventually becomes true. Comair pilots were never against the hiring of furloughed pilots whether they were DAL furloughed or any other airline. Comair MANAGEMENT had a policy of requiring seniority resignation from furloughed pilots before they would hire them. That provision applied to any airline, not just DAL. General Lee and the boys keep pounding the drum insisting CMR pilots were to blame and now people believe it. Goebbels would be proud of you.

I find it interesting that DAL pilots want to hold a management decision against the CMR pilots when it suits their agenda, but OTOH, they want amnesty from their managements decision to not offer reciprocal jumpseat agreements. Pretty inconsistent if you ask me.

Your statement is correct! Rest assurred reasonable thinking will not follow.
 
Fins,

Sorry about the thread creep, but I'm not going to let the misperception of Comair pilots being against the hiring of DAL pilots go unchallenged. I know it's old ground, but as long as they keep telling lies I'm gonna keep calling them on it.
 
With major costs reduced to parity with the small jet operators, the cost advantages of outsourcing to Republic, SkyWest, Mesa and others just does not justify the additional expenses of the triple redundant infastructure and certificates. Besides none of the alter ego carriers has the exact same level of control and customer service as the mainline carriers.

I think this makes a good bit of sense. One administrative group, one quality control group, one support group - heck, on most days I hear at least one of my managers ask "How does Delta do it?" The push to make policy and procedure consistent with Delta's PnP has been going on for several years now (granted with varying results).

The pilots can hammer on the seniority issues all they want. But from the administrative/support side of the house, having as much redundancy as we have between two carriers owned by the same company just does not make financial sense.
 
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The fact is, the military/other big jet guys& gals are a sure bet.
Did that blasphemy get you banned from the civvie pilots club? All in jest fellas.
 
A few years back I had a new hire doing jumpseat IOE at ASA. He was furloughed DAL. The kicker was he worked at Comair for 9 years and he had to come to ASA because Comair wouldn't rehire him.
FWIW.
 
Caveman,

You can call it propaganda if you want but the memo is posted above and to cut it down to size for you:

"The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support."

This only changed once we started recalling. Then it was oh boy let's jump on the bandwagon and funny how you approached your management once again and the seniority number resignation wasn't such a big deal after all.

It's funny when I brought this up to friends of mine at Comair in 02 the general feeling was that Delta wasn't going to be hiring any time during their career so it didn't really matter. Matter of fact Delta future hiring was a joke to them.
 
Back it up. Give us the name of even one furloughed Delta pilot who was hired by CMR?
.

I already told you that I personally flew with at least two. There may have been more but the two I know of told me themselves they were furloughed from DAL. One was a previous CMR pilot. I don't know their names because when I enter flights in my logbook I don't bother to jot down the FO's background. I can tell you one of them worked as a cop for a couple of years between the furlough and going back into aviation. I specifically remember the former Comair guy because it was weird having him as an FO knowing he was a Comair CRJ Captain before I was even hired. One of them told me there was at least one other DAL furloughee in his new hire (rehire?) class. Maybe I just got lucky and flew with the only two.

Few or many. It proves Comair did hire at least some DAL furloughees.
 
I already told you that I personally flew with at least two.


To quote you from another thread: "Just because somebody heard that somebody had a guy on their jumpseat that was related to a girl that married a guy whose cousin worked the ramp at CVG and overheard a Comair Captain talking about it doesn't mean squat. "

If I told my Delta buddies that an unknown CMR pilot on the FlightInfo message board said he flew with a furloughed Delta pilot, would that carry anymore weight?

Along those lines, I am not going to accept the word of an unknown source on an internet web board. I tend to believe you, but absent an actual name of a Delta pilot hired at CMR, you still haven't proven a thing.

I do have a question for you, assuming CMR did ultimately hire a furloughed Delta pilot. You said there are valid reasons to make a pilot resign seniority. I don't disagree. But, the CMR MEC shot that argument right out the window when the reversed course and decided drop that requirement. Why the change?
 

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