Collins 5000 Questions...

[Luftpost]

Hey guys, I am warming up to the Collins 5000 in our 400A, and have the following question....

Today my flight plan looked like this......KILL MCW KSUS.

While enroute to KSUS (after MCW), I programed in the ILS 8R at KSUS, via "DEP/ARR" chapter, selected the "ILS 8R", "Vectors", then "Executed". Upon reviewing the waypoints in "Leg" chapter, I discovered the waypoints of the ILS approach had been inserted AFTER the KSUS fix. Between KSUS and the first fix of the approach was a "Discontinuity", I suppose because of the placement of the approach after the airport in the flight plan.

My first question is why was the flight plan arranged that way.....

And two....if the "Nav Source" remains in FMS, how do you get the F*%@#$ thing to join, then capture the ILS approach while on vectors???? On other flights, the fixes have all been inserted in the proper order, but I still get the "Discontinuity" between the last enroute fix and the first fix of the Instrument approach. Why doesn't it skip the discontinuity, realize it is intercepting the Loc, and adjust the flight director accordingly????? It seems like some "Discontinuities" can be deleted, others not....why??

The manual from Collins is incomplete, and does not give enough info on many details.

Thanks for the help and I hope it makes sense!

L

 

[MarineGrunt]

A Discontinuity just means you confused the FMS from what you entered in. Helps you catch an error. I'm thinking the reason it does that when you enter approaches is the box assumes the entered route is what you filed and what you have been cleared. When you get to your destination, there may be another approach in use, or runway change, etc. Having the approach built in to your flight plan may not be a good idea, since it could cause you to fly something that you haven't been cleared. (My guess) So you must activate the approach manually. Once you get cleared for the approach, just hit the LSK next to the first waypoint and bring it all the way to the top. If you get "Upon reaching MCW, Cleared ILS..." just bring the waypoint to the LSK below MCW, hit EXEC and it will take you right there. I've never been unable to remove a discontinuity unless I had some other error preventing it from being removed.

I'm a newbe with FMSs too so hopefully this helped.

 

[Snakum]

Dumb newbie question ...

Aside from the aircraft-specific fuel and weight calculations and what-not in the FMS, does a pro-quality FMS, as found on newer Citations (CJ2 specifically) perform essentially the same functions as a Garmin 530, i.e. you can easily create and modify flight plans and then couple the autopilot to the unit for course guidance via the bars or have the AP actually fly it?

And if it is basically the same service provided by both kinds of avionics ...

With which unit can a flightplan be more easily modified while enroute and having to change fixes in a STAR, or go direct and being able to bypass a waypoint(s)?

Which unit is easier to program initially?

Are there appreciable differences between a GNS530 with a large ancilliary Avidyne screen and the FMS found in the console of CJ1/2, aside from (I'd imagine) being able to auto calculate fuel requirements, weight and balance, etc. for the specific aircraft with the FMS?


I'm curious, because I heard a Citation driver say "We never use that new FMS they put in. We just program the Garmin and couple the AP to that. It's much easier to use on the fly." They had a single FMS pad with the LED screen showing the flightplan and the times/directions, etc. recently installed into the pedastal behind the autopilot (as well as whatever systems the keypad controlled, of course), but they already had a coupled G530 with a large aftermarket screen that showed all the Garmin 530 data, Strikefinder and weather radar data, and TCAS info. But it sounded as if they already had everything they needed with the Garmin 530. I'm confused.

Why would someone have a modern FMS installed if the Garmin already did everything they needed, and they could manually perform all the calculations that the FMS provided over and above the nav functionality?

Minh

 

[capt_zman]

Here's how you do that.

After you put the approach in, the discontinuity shows up, which is normal. After you receive a vector, (most of the time depending on where you are being vectored to) you simply put the final approach fix in the 2L position (to waypoint). Before you execute, you'll notice the inbound course in small numbers on 4R. You need to press 4R and convert the inbound course from small to large numbers and then execute. What this does is it tells the FMS to intercept the inbound course when APPR or NAV is activated (from HEADING mode) and this will intercept the localizer and glideslope in APPR mode.

If you leave the inbound course in small numbers, when you press NAV or APPR, it will go to the 2L waypoint (which you do for GPS approaches). The small and large number trick works well when intercepting radials from vectors as well.

As for snakum's questions, the Collins and Honeywell work very well (albeit differently) with flight plans, approaches, holding, A/P coupling, modifying, comms, etc. IMHO, the FMS is much easier to use than the 530's because of the larger keypads on each unit and the functionality of the units, particularly VNAV. I won't go into specifics on VNAV capabilities of each unit, but when asked "Nxxxx, cross 10 miles west of xxx at 11000, speed 250 knots", it takes all of 3 seconds to put that into the box and have it calculate a descent path for you.

As for visual indications of an FMS, all the equipment I've flown, you can see what you are doing, about to do, or what you were doing, on one of the Navigation Displays (ND), which are typically large screens in the panel. FMS displays are getting better and better, such as displaying such things as Airshow, Charts, Maps, super-imposed airplane over approaches, GPWS, TCAS, EGPWS, descent profiles, etc.

Overall, again IMHO, although the 530 is a great unit, there is no comparison to a Collins, Honeywell or Universal FMS.

 

[Snakum]

Thanks Cap'n Z. Never having used a unit that does whiz-bang stuff in the vertical axis ... I didn't think about the VNav capability, and the ability of the FMS units to calculate and fly descent profiles.

As a newbie seat-warmer, I'm still enthralled by things as simple as the ability to select an altitude and roll in the descent rate for the AP on the King Air. For me, coming from rental Skyhawks, that is whiz-bang.

Minh

 

[Snakum]

Uh oh ... another newbie question arises:

In light of the above information, why do we see the odd C500/550 with a new Garmin 430/530 installed, when there is already a late-model FMS in the aircraft. I can remember seeing pictures of flightdecks with both, and now I've seen two C550s in person with both.

What's the advantage to having a 430 or 530 (or one of each, in some cases) installed? Why would the owner spring for that (the Garmin installation isn't cheap) when his ship already has a good FMS? Backup?

Just curious ...

Minhberg

 

[Luftpost]

Marine & Capt_Z....thanks for your replies!

Capt_Z, I am not sure what you mean by 2L and 4R. I am guessing 2 lines down on Left side and 4 on the Right?

I will be flying the 400A to KCOD tomorrow. Though they do not have an ILS there, I will have plenty of time to screw around with it enroute and follow your guidance.

L

 

[capt_zman]

Yes, 2L is the 2nd button on the left side and 4R is the fourth on the right. Play with the unit, it really can do some cool stuff. For example, with your flight plan in the box, select the particular approach for the airport you are going to. Go into the PLAN mode on the MFD and you'll be able to see what you are building, deleting, etc. Pretty cool. Also, build yourself some visual approaches (with 3 and 5 mile finals) and follow the same procedure I listed above. What will happen is that it will build a runway centerline to intercept and will provide VNAV guidance to the threshold (again, you can do a number of things here, like put in a 50' alt over the threshold, speeds, etc). Just fly the snowflake and it's very similar to a ILS.

As for the 530 in the lower end citations (500, 550's, etc), notice how all of those airplanes are still steam gauges? The reason owners put the 530's in is for the 530 display screen and the situational awareness it provides. With just an FMS and no Nav Displays (ND's), the FMS drives the needles just like any other GPS system.

 

[Bandit60]

Hey guys, I am warming up to the Collins 5000 in our 400A, and have the following question....

Today my flight plan looked like this......KILL MCW KSUS.

While enroute to KSUS (after MCW), I programed in the ILS 8R at KSUS, via "DEP/ARR" chapter, selected the "ILS 8R", "Vectors", then "Executed". Upon reviewing the waypoints in "Leg" chapter, I discovered the waypoints of the ILS approach had been inserted AFTER the KSUS fix. Between KSUS and the first fix of the approach was a "Discontinuity", I suppose because of the placement of the approach after the airport in the flight plan.

My first question is why was the flight plan arranged that way.....

And two....if the "Nav Source" remains in FMS, how do you get the F*%@#$ thing to join, then capture the ILS approach while on vectors???? On other flights, the fixes have all been inserted in the proper order, but I still get the "Discontinuity" between the last enroute fix and the first fix of the Instrument approach. Why doesn't it skip the discontinuity, realize it is intercepting the Loc, and adjust the flight director accordingly????? It seems like some "Discontinuities" can be deleted, others not....why??

The manual from Collins is incomplete, and does not give enough info on many details.

Thanks for the help and I hope it makes sense!

L

Hopefully I can answer this easily for you to understand. The reason the fixes where all before KSUS was because ,at the point you entered in the approach, you were going direct to KSUS. If you were going to another fix it would not have done that.

This is an easy thing to fix. When you start to get your vectors, just line select the begin fix in the appoach and drop it into the scratch pad. Then place it on top of the fix that is at the top of the page on the NAV page. Hit execute and then you will have the inbound course. Just arm nav on your autopilot when you want to intercept it and that should be the end of it.

I hope this helps

 

[capt_zman]

Bandit,

Just to clarify, when you put the initial fix at the top (FROM waypoint), you can only intercept if you are inside of the initial fix and outside of the next fix (TO waypoint). If you are vectored outside of the initial fix, you are out of luck because the FMS thinks that is your FROM waypoint. This procedure can really screw you in a GPS approach (with the T IAF's).

I agree with you that it is easy to do most of the time, but it can get you into trouble.

 

[GravityHater]

I'd love a forum where newbies and knowbies could chat about FMSs.
I am learning the GNS Xls and it is making my head spin. And I am pretty sharp with other GPSs and computers. This thing has a logic that I am not familiar with.

 

[Bandit60]

Bandit,

Just to clarify, when you put the initial fix at the top (FROM waypoint), you can only intercept if you are inside of the initial fix and outside of the next fix (TO waypoint). If you are vectored outside of the initial fix, you are out of luck because the FMS thinks that is your FROM waypoint. This procedure can really screw you in a GPS approach (with the T IAF's).

I agree with you that it is easy to do most of the time, but it can get you into trouble.

I beg to differ with you on your point.

I hear what you are saying but, maybe my collins box is different but I can intercept it from the outside of that fix with no problem. That is why I was recommending it. I do it daily.

Maybe my stuff is different but I am flying the Proline 21 avionics suite. It might do things a little different, then what he has on the Beechjet.

I have never had a problem doing this.

 

[Luftpost]

Thanks guys, I really do appreciate the info. I feel I have a pretty good "basic" grasp of the system. I welcome any other tips and trick that you have learned and find usefull!

Thanks again, and I will try all this stuff out today and let you know how it works, particularly the Visual into KCOD.

L

 

[MarineGrunt]

I'd love a forum where newbies and knowbies could chat about FMSs.
I am learning the GNS Xls and it is making my head spin. And I am pretty sharp with other GPSs and computers. This thing has a logic that I am not familiar with.

Once you get is figured out, that stuff is money. I've never found much that helped me learn about how to use an FMS until I got to UPT, but I recently bought "CRJ 2004," an add on for MSFS 2004 (yes, I'm a dork). It has a functional FMS and MFD. The FMS doesn't have all the functions of the real one, but I'd say it's 50-75% of the real thing. Perfect if you're new and just learning basic functions of the box. It has a guide that will talk you through. It might also help those of you with an ASA interview coming up since the sim is a CRJ.... you could get your scan up to speed. An EADI with the tapes on the side are a little different if you haven't used them before.

Anyway, good stuff. If anyone knows of any website, or whatever, that is dedicated to learning FMS functions, feel free to post!

 

[Snakum]

If anyone knows of any website, or whatever, that is dedicated to learning FMS functions, feel free to post!

Ahhhight! (Redneck term meaning "Certainly, sir. I will do that immediately.") Dunno if this fits the bill, as it is quite rudimentary and not interactice, however it helped clear up a lot of confusion for me concerning basic FMS functionality:

http://www.ivao.org/training/pilot/sb_manual/sb_fms_tutorial.html


Minhommad the Mad Muslim Porkchop Prince

 

[Luftpost]

Well, I arrived in Cody a few hours ago. Once up to altitude, I had plenty of time to fool around with the system. I discovered the "Intc Course" on the bottom right with the little/big numbers mentioned above. I can't believe I did not notice that before...anyway, I was able to incorporate that into the flight plan and it worked very well.

I noted are that with both Visual and GPS approaches, the intercept course must be manually inserted. ILS approaches are automatically inserted. Don't know why that is, just a minor inconvienience.

Please explain to me the significance of the little/big numbers before and after the execution for intercepting. What do I get if I leave them little, or vice versa. How does each play into approach mode.

Again thanks for all the great help!

L

 

[capt_zman]

When you leave the intercept in small numbers, upon going to NAV or APPR, the plane is going to track to the TO waypoint (it's going to start turning ASAP). When you select the larger numbers, upon going to NAV or APPR, the plane is going to stay in HDG mode (note both lights on the MCP) until the intercept of that larger number radial, then automatically go to NAV or APPR (start the turn to track the course). It's like drawing an extended centerline and intercepting that tangent.Keep playing with it, you'll see that box is awesome.

 

[Luftpost]

When you leave the intercept in small numbers, upon going to NAV or APPR, the plane is going to track to the TO waypoint (it's going to start turning ASAP). When you select the larger numbers, upon going to NAV or APPR, the plane is going to stay in HDG mode (note both lights on the MCP) until the intercept of that larger number radial, then automatically go to NAV or APPR (start the turn to track the course). It's like drawing an extended centerline and intercepting that tangent.Keep playing with it, you'll see that box is awesome.

Got it!!! I'll play with it today again on our way home.

L

 

[PHX767]

What may have been missed in the intial discussion is the importance of the active waypoint (the purple one at 2L). If the destination is the active waypoint, any approaches selected (visual or instrument) will result in a discontinuity. This is to keep the plane from going somewhere it has not been cleared to.

When in the terminal area being vectored or manuevering visually, a technique is to move the first waypoint of the approach up to the active waypoint, and then entering the inbound course (hint: it is the course to the following waypoint) in the course box at the lower right. If you overwrite the numbers in the course box and then enter, you get an extended centerline to the runway. If you do not overwrite you will get a course to the approach waypoint. A matter of preference, but the extended centerline seems more useful.

 

[Luftpost]

I successfully flew the visual 8R this eve into KSUS, using the FMS. I inserted the intercept course, punched Heading and Approach mode, and it led me right on course. Slick!

I was however unscuccessful in obtaining vertical navigation from the Flight Director while on the visual approach. The FD maintained its altitude of 2000 feet. Thinking about it, the altitude hold may have been set, but would not the APP mode cancel that out?? Where and how do I get this infamous snowflake.

When joining the artificial glide slope on a visual, the intercept altitude can be anywhere. So when you do intercept, how does it determine the descent angle?? Is it based on 50' (or what ever value you set for Height Above Threshold)?

One other question..... we often get 30 miles West of KSUS at 5000'. I got it tonight, so I inserted the 30 mile fix in the Legs page. Then attached the altitude restriction on the right side. Then I hit Direct, selected the 30 mile waypoint on the right side (altitude), and Execute. Nothing happened. Again, shouldn't the snowflake appear? I was set in Nav mode at the time, not Approach. I normally use the pink arc, but I would like to have some sort of GS as I do on the Honeywell GNS/XLS. Again the snowflake??

Thanks guys!!

L