College Flight Aviation or not?

[Luchini]

Hello everyone. Long time reader first time poster. Ive always been fascinated with being a pilot and after months of consideration Ive decided to give it a shot. Ive worked quite a few different jobs, mostly retail sales jobs and havent been satisfied. There has always been this feeling that something is missing and have decided being an aviator would fill it. While working full time for the past 3 years I am just not finishing up my AA degree and plan on getting my BA or BS. My question is would you veterans out there reccommend going to a colleigate aviation school or a national flight program such ATP?

Ive been leaning more towards the college aviation route. Figure I can kill two birds with one stone with getting my BS and my flight training. Then again it would probably only take me a year to get all my ratings after college. I am probaby gonna get my BA in History if I dont do the flight program. But then again college aviation I think provides more training then a regular flight school. I live in WA and am considering Central Washington University Flight Technology program. (www.cwu.edu) On top of regular tuition it cost $40,300 for all ratings up to CFII. They also have a direct hire program with Horizon Air in which if you get good grades etc. etc. you can interview with Horizon Air and also have internships with Horizon and Alaska. They said if I can come in with a Private and Instrument ratings I can probably graduate in 2 years instead of 4.

Right now Im 21 yrs old and am graduating with my AA in June. From there I will attend CWU and get my degree in 2 years. These two are for sure. Im really not sure what to do about flight training now though. Im kinda stuck in a crossroads. When I go back to school in September I will be making a $1000 a month part time and the only expense I have is my car loan which is 225 a month. What would some of you guys do if you were in my shoes? Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

College flight programs

Ive been leaning more towards the college aviation route. Figure I can kill two birds with one stone with getting my BS and my flight training. Then again it would probably only take me a year to get all my ratings after college. I am probaby gonna get my BA in History if I dont do the flight program. But then again college aviation I think provides more training then a regular flight school.

I happen to like an aviation-oriented college degree, but it's far more important to earn a four-year degree, in something, from an accredited college.

I like aviation programs because of the aeronautical knowledge one receives. You will likely spend some time getting all your ground school, meteorology, flight phys, systems and technical writing, as opposed to a great many commercial flight schools, which tend to cram it down your throat. I have instructed in both kinds of programs, at ERAU, at FlightSafety, and at MAPD, which would be almost a hybrid college program-commercial flight school, so I feel I know.

Except for training philosophies, there isn't much difference between commercial schools and college programs in terms of the quantity of flight training. You'll receive enough instruction to be trained to proficiency. Once you meet standards for a particular course phase, you won't receive any more training, even if you think you need it.

They also have a direct hire program with Horizon Air in which if you get good grades etc. etc. you can interview with Horizon Air and also have internships with Horizon and Alaska.

I would be skeptical of the former. The internships are the true drawing card and what you really want out of the program. The internships can very well lead to a job with these airline, once you meet their quals. Internships and not the alleged direct-hire programs are the true plus.

They said if I can come in with a Private and Instrument ratings I can probably graduate in 2 years instead of 4.

They might give you academic credit for your ratings, which would be great, but you might have to test out of their programs before they award credit. If you fail, you might have to take their Private and/or Instrument courses, even though you already have your ratings. Students with ratings went through that process at ERAU. We found that many of them could not fly as well as our home-grown Riddlers. A lot depends on the school.

Having said all that, if you like CWU and it's what you want to do, then I would do it. It might not hurt to do some comparison shopping of other aviation college programs before making a decision.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[alberchico]

Dont go to an aviation college.Getting a degree in aircraft operations will not help you if you get furloughed.Go to a regular college and get a degree in anything that interests you.Then go to a ab-initio program such as Flight Safety or Pan Am Flight Academy .They both have an excellent record of placing graduates in decent jobs.Going to your local flight school and doing it the old-fashioned way will not work.Graduates of these programs can secure jobs with lower hours than people who went to some unknown flight school out in the middle of nowhere.Some airlines such as Comair,only interview canidates that graduate from their flight academies.(Comair Flight Academy)

 

[Goose Egg]

Going to your local flight school and doing it the old-fashioned way will not work.(Comair Flight Academy)

I don't necessarily agree with that. There are plenty of sucess stories coming from the FBO ranks. It's all a matter of being in the right place at the right time. True, FBO training isn't my preferred method of training, but then again, niether is the Ab $n$t$o programs.

You never know what is going to happen. For example, I graduated from to a western college with connections to SkyWest. Am I flying for Skywest? No. I now instruct at a New England college with connections to different, east coast regionals, but definitely not SkyWest.

Oh, and just for the record, my education was ultra cheap. I've heard stories of $35K through $50k of loans for flight programs. I owe $18k.

Anyway, find the method of training that will work best for you. I hated the lack of structure at an FBO. I liked how college programs have academic classes to make you a more rounded aviator. It was a good fit for me. Find what's a good fit for you.

 

[H25BCPTN]

Become a Doctor and buy an aircraft. Love the job but I know alot of friends that did not make it. I pray that it does get better soon. When you have over 10,000 applications on file with any given major and they are going to hire maybe 200-300 for the year, the numbers don't add up with how many young, bright kids that are entering into aviation. We have alot of great pilots in my company with over 5,000 hours and lots of PIC jet time not getting a call for an interview. If it is your passion and that is where God wants you to go, then go for it.

Good Luck

Fly Safe

 

[Beer&Brauts]

You might also consider going to a school with an aviation program and getting a degree in something non-aviation, and taking aviation classes as electives.

 

[Clyde]

Luchini,

I hope my advice can be of help to you. I went to an accredited 4-year college with an aviation program and earned a B.S. in Aviation Technology. Earned my private, CFI, CFII, MEII at flight schools at the local airport, and the remainder at the University. Hindsight is always 20/20, and even though I have been very blessed in my chosen career so far, I would offer up a different approach to someone just starting out.

FLYING LESSONS:
Should one take lessons at an FBO or a collegiate aviation program? The answer is, it really doesen't matter. What's important however, is the quality of the training you receive. If you decide to go to a local FBO, go to several of them and compare not only price, but facilities, aircraft, instructors, and availability. There are many FBO's and local flight schools out there. Some are very good, and some are not. The same holds true for academies and colleges. In the end, you will be issued certificates and ratings from the FAA, and they all look the same, no matter where you went. The only constant, is that you have to work for them.

COLLEGE
What kind of degree should you get? There is no question you should pursue something that makes you happy. However, due to the cyclical nature of the airlines, you should also also be asking this question: What kind of degree is going to give me the education and/or skillset which will make me very marketable. In other words, I don't recommend a degree in aviation. I have one and I am fortunate to be flying for a secure major airline, but outside of this it is useless. You may need to have a non-aviation skill to help you financially by using it on days off while flight instructing or building hours flying for someone who doesen't consider your salary much of an expense. For example, if I were starting over again, I would probably pursue a degree in something like nursing for example. Unlike aviation, a lot of my friends and family who are in this profession can go anywhere for a job and earn a very decent living. This could be a beneficial tool in the event of a furlough or recessed pilot job market. Also, once you make it to your desired aviation goal, you may still be able to use a skill on your days off for added income. Bottom line is this: most airlines are going to require you to have a 4 year degree from an accredited university. It makes no difference what you majored in. In my new-hire class of 20 pilots, only 4 of us had aviation degrees. One guy had no degree.

INTERNSHIPS AND GUARANTEED INTERVIEWS
When I was in college, I did an internship with American Airlines, and had a very pleasant experience. This opportunity was afforded to me because I was enrolled in the college's aviation program. It was a great learning experience, made a lot of friends, and was granted an interview about 5 years out of college. However, I ended up interviewing and accepting a job at another major. The experience, as I mentioned earlier, was a very positive one, but it didn't make or break my career. Just gave me some added insight.
When a school promises an internship or an interview, read the fine print. Anybody can guarantee and offer an unlimited number of interviews, but how many firm job offers can they guarantee. Internships can make you contacts inside an airline, but you still have to build the hours to get there, and at best they may only be able to help you get the interview, you have to earn the job offer. The economy and law of supply and demand will dictate how many pilots get hired.

WHERE TO GO FROM HERE
This is my $0.02, but here is what I would do. Get a degree in something that will put food on your table and allow you to secure employment in a field that is stable. I would concentrate on getting the degree first. Then, upon graduation, I would begin my flight training. Whether an FBO, local flight school, or academy, as long as I'm not overspending, but I am getting good, quality, instructing. (As a side note, you can use your new degree in your non-aviation career to help you finance your lessons. This may prevent you from having to borrow money). Upon finishing flight training, I would begin the process of instructing and hunting for flying work to make me marketable for my ultimate flying goal. Again, your other job can help pay the bills while the boss is paying you $200.00 a week (before taxes) to instruct. Trust me, I've been there, and the pay was 200 bucks a week, in a good week. As your building time, constantly evaluate the pilot job market, your current position, your current income level, current quality of life, and when/if you can increase those standards positively in aviation.

Also, looking at your age, the military may be a very viable option. Not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but very rewarding nonetheless. If you are able, I would investigate any possible opportunities to fly in a Reserve or Air National Guard unit. And, if it's me, I would concentrate on the heavies. i.e, tankers, transports.

I hope this information helps. No matter which route you take, it is going to require a lot of work. Be safe and be wise. Also, be careful what people promise you. It is tempting to go to a place which advertises interviews and such, but be sure to read the fine print. Flight schools and academies are business and they have to make money. Differentiate between possible positive opportunities for yourself and marketing schemes to attract students.

 

[flyflorida2001]

Hey,


I am a senior at Florida Tech in the aviation management program. I personally would go with the aviation college. I am currently interning with JetBlue Airways, and I have a friend from Central Washington State (you mentioned you were lookin there) who is interning at JetBlue right now as well. I have enjoyed learning about and being around people intrested in aviation. Aviation schools afford you oppurtunities that others dont (like internships). I agree that you need a back up in case of a furlough. I for one am in the aviation management program which is a business degree. So do your homework and check around...but I think that is the best option.

 

[Gearmunky]

To add a little bit more, I just graduated with a B.S. in Aviation Management back in January. I did not go to one of these "zero to hero" (no offense, they have their place) flight schools, and got all of my ratings at a smaller school. Learning to fly is and should be fun. The people I have talked to say that these big "Captain in a Year" schools are accelerated programs where the whole idea is to turn your learning experience into a money making puppy mill for the company and screw your personal experience. The advantage to one of these schools is their contacts to employment, I don't think the airlines are quite for me so I wasn't interested in them to begin with. Also, I think these schools are ruining the industry because they promote themselves to their respective airlines and only hire there own (Comair). Where does the kid whose dad has a cub in a barn, and a friend with a twin get a chance of getting a good job?
I went to a small private college and, when other kids were drooling asleep in class just to fill their electives and what not, I was out boring holes in the sky for credits. Don't worry about getting a degree outside of aviation, If you look at the stats most people do something totally different from their degree anyway. Do what you like. I chose to get an aviation degree because everything else seemed boring, flying is expensive as hell, and it counted towards my degree. Flying may count as electives toward another degree, but you need to do your homework. Picking a good college still applies as it does to careers outside the industry. Embry Riddle supposedly has a good name but is expensive as hell. On the latter side, I have met many a chief pilot who won't hire their graduates, but then again I have met many a graduate whose flight department is all they hire. Personally, I like to pride myself in thinking that I've been building my career on hard work, perseverance, and fun. Not because I've bought my way into a job.
Work hard, fly hard, and while this business seems huge it is EXTREMELY tight knit, and character means a lot. Good Luck.

 

[Luchini]

Wow lots of good input, thanks guys. Some of you seem to say collegiate aviation is the route to go while others disagree. Im still stuck halfway between the two. The only other thing I like besides aviation is history. Oh and video games! I would prefer to major in one of these fields as I would actually excited or at least not loathe going to classes while in school.

I did consider flying with the military. But my vision isnt up to far, I already checked.

Another thing I have been considering is enlisting in the Air Force or Navy active duty for 3 or 4 years and getting my degree while active duty. It would save me in tuition costs (about $30,000 for 2 years on at a state university) and I could use the GI bill for up to 60% of flight training costs. I could also learn a skill in the service that I could use in civilian life. But then again that would take 3-5 years out of flight time and from what Ive heard building as much flight time as possible is what will get you hired.

I think my short term aviation goal after I get all my ratings is getting hired as a CFI for a couple years. Then after that getting hired into the regionals.

I am quickly learning that this profession is unlike most other professions where in more traditional jobs your actual skills are more important then seniority and experience you can log in a book. In my current line of work (sales, specfically wireless sales) Ive seen people promoted to management in as little as 2 years and sometimes less. I dont think Ive ever heard of someone being promoted to captain in less then 2 years.

 

[bobbysamd]

Avatar aside

You might also consider going to a school with an aviation program and getting a degree in something non-aviation, and taking aviation classes as electives.

I like your Quentin Griffin avatar!

 

[Clyde]

Wow lots of good input, thanks guys. Some of you seem to say collegiate aviation is the route to go while others disagree. Im still stuck halfway between the two. The only other thing I like besides aviation is history. Oh and video games! I would prefer to major in one of these fields as I would actually excited or at least not loathe going to classes while in school.

I did consider flying with the military. But my vision isnt up to far, I already checked.

Another thing I have been considering is enlisting in the Air Force or Navy active duty for 3 or 4 years and getting my degree while active duty. It would save me in tuition costs (about $30,000 for 2 years on at a state university) and I could use the GI bill for up to 60% of flight training costs. I could also learn a skill in the service that I could use in civilian life. But then again that would take 3-5 years out of flight time and from what Ive heard building as much flight time as possible is what will get you hired.

I think my short term aviation goal after I get all my ratings is getting hired as a CFI for a couple years. Then after that getting hired into the regionals.

I am quickly learning that this profession is unlike most other professions where in more traditional jobs your actual skills are more important then seniority and experience you can log in a book. In my current line of work (sales, specfically wireless sales) Ive seen people promoted to management in as little as 2 years and sometimes less. I dont think Ive ever heard of someone being promoted to captain in less then 2 years.

Luchini,

Have you considered enlisting in the Reserves or ANG? Unless activated to full-time service, your commitment would allow you serve part-time and you can still go to college. Also, see what they can do for helping with college tuition.
When I was in college, I knew people that were in the Air National Guard part-time, and the government was helping with their tuition. And you were correct, you might be able to learn a very valuable skill.

About the degree, don't worry about whether or not it's aviation.

 

[unreal]

I'm going to be perfectly honest...

If I could do it over again, would I have started a Bachelor's degree in aviation? Nah.

Seriously, you're going to save yourself time and money by getting your ratings on your own at an FBO/accelerated program/etc. instead of at a big university. Also, getting your degree in something besides aviation will give you something to fall back on should something keep you out of the air.

If you're dead-set on going, best of luck to you. But keep in mind that many of these places will pump you chock-full of propaganda to get you to enroll. They'll tell you all sorts of stories about how your resume will be on the bottom of the stack if you don't get their degree.

That's BS. All you need is a 4-year degree (in anything!) and the appropriate ratings to get that job you're looking for.

 

[pilotyip]

College Degree

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We just hired a 20 year old pilot, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is starting as a DA-20 F/O at 33K, he will be a DA-20 Capt the day he turns 23, he feels he will have his degree completed by the time he is 25 or 26 years old. At that time he should have 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He will have his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job, The traditional 4 yr degree guy who has TT 1200 350 MEL 15 Turbine. Who is the more competitive?

As I have posted before you can fly full time and do your degree on the side on-line, but you can not be a full time on-campus student and build Turbo Jet PIC. Airline jobs go to those with Part 121 Turbo Jet PIC time in the 1,000's of hours, the degree is not needed, and I am talking about great jobs at AirTran, Spirit and Jet blue. Airlines that do not let the degree thing get in the way of picking up a highly qualified pilot. I have seen it happen too many times.

 

[bobbysamd]

Online degree v. on-campus degree

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We just hired a 20 year old pilot, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is starting as a DA-20 F/O at 33K, he will be a DA-20 Capt the day he turns 23, he feels he will have his degree completed by the time he is 25 or 26 years old. At that time he should have 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He will have his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job, The traditional 4 yr degree guy who has TT 1200 350 MEL 15 Turbine. Who is the more competitive?

Yip always fails to consider several points when he makes his argument: (1) His "model" is highly atypical. Few 18-year-olds get hired to fly Metros; (2) Many aviation employers besides airlines look for the degree and not having it eliminates you from consideration; and, last but not least (3) completing non-campus academic programs, such as online programs and correspondence schools, takes a great amount of discipline and initiative. Few people have such discipline and initiative. After one is working, it is all too easy to put school aside and never even begin, much less finish.

Why even bother with high school if building hours early is the name of the game? Drop out, get your G.E.D., solo at 16, Private at 17, and Commercial at 18. School's a drag, right?

Go with your plan. Go to college, on-campus, get your degree, and get it out of the way. If you can work in flying some way, fine, but at this point the degree take precedence. Go to summer school if you want to finish quicker.

 

[pilotyip]

Not atypical

I have seen too many succeed in the sense of making a living flying airplanes. They all started early and flew airplanes until they got the job they wanted. I have nothing against the college degree, but pursuit of an aviation degree without logging quality flight time puts you behind the hiring curve. TJ PIC gets you the job. Part 121 TJ PIC without a degree will open more doors than a degree without Part 121 TJ PIC time. You have to decide what you want to do; going to school is fun, if you are looking for fun, go to school. If you want to be a pilot, start flying airplanes. Think of this logic, 97% of the pilots hired have college degrees, 97% of the pilots who applied had college degrees. What about the other 3%?

 

[bobbysamd]

Circular reasoning

I have seen too many succeed in the sense of making a living flying airplanes. They all started early and flew airplanes until they got the job they wanted. I have nothing against the college degree, but pursuit of an aviation degree without logging quality flight time puts you behind the hiring curve. TJ PIC gets you the job. Part 121 TJ PIC without a degree will open more doors than a degree without Part 121 TJ PIC time.

(emphasis added)

This is a closed-loop. Maybe with the exception of your company, Yip, you need the degree to get the job. You might still get the job without the degree, but you will be at a disadvantage to those who have it. Why start off at something when the playing field is tilted against you? In other words, you need the degree to get the Part 121 TJ PIC because the Part 121 TJ companies prefer such people.

You have to decide what you want to do; going to school is fun, if you are looking for fun, go to school.

That is ridiculous, Yip. Do you think the kids who go to Harvard and Yale are going there strictly to have fun? Or to any of the military academies? For that matter, any other school? I do realize that many kids who go to college barely go to classes, party hearty all four years and cram enough to pass their finals, but I'm not talking about them. Most kids who go to college are at least somewhat serious about getting an education.

I never thought school was much fun; in fact I found it to be a chore and somewhat boring. But I also realized that I needed a college education to improve and promote my chances for success, whatever I chose to do. The same reasoning applies to pilots.

In addition, not all colleges are party schools. There are plenty of colleges that are urban-oriented, with few activities and no dorms or frats. People go to these schools because they want an education only and not get drunk on Greek Weekend.

Think of this logic, 97% of the pilots hired have college degrees, 97% of the pilots who applied had college degrees. What about the other 3%?

97 to 3 against. I don't think I like those odds.

Don't try to beat the odds. Level the playing field. Get the degree.

 

[pilotyip]

Harvard? Yale?

We are not talking about those schools; we are talking about a level well below the Ivy League. Those schools are not known diploma mills for college degree aspiring pilot candidates. You do not need the degree to get TJ PIC, there is only about three airlines hiring right now that make a degree a showstopper. All of the regionals could care less about a degree; they look at the individual and what they bring to the show. Let’s check those odds (97% of the pilots applying have a degree /97% those applying with degree get hired) is the same ratio as (3% without degree apply /3% without degree get hired) It is not a 97 to 3 ratio. There are many good reasons to get a degree, but their importance in getting into aviation is misplaced. You can go to school on-line while building quality flight time; you can not build quality flight time while going to school full time. It is a matter of timing.

 

[bobbysamd]

Work as a "showstopper"

You can go to school on-line while building quality flight time; you can not build quality flight time while going to school full time. It is a matter of timing.

You're missing the point. Get your education first. Once more, you do one and then do the other. A college degree improves your chances of being hired. Get it first and get it out of the way and/or consider a college flight program. So many people who work never start college or take many years to finish it.

Flight time and certificates without the degree are, well . . . . . flight time and certificates. Neither will do much good for you if no one needs you. The degree will open many doors.

 

[Luchini]

I tend to agree more with bobbysamd. Having a degree only opens up oppurtunities for any job. America is a country based on credentials for employment and having a degree is one of the most important credentials one can get. Just trying to decide whether a aviation degree or a non aviation degree is best for me.

 

[pilotyip]

What do you want to be?

Again I have nothing against a college degree, the country will be a better place for people going to name colleges. Getting degrees in the sciences, business and engineering and applying what has been learned will be better for all of us. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. If soemone feels them will have a edge in an avaitioon career by going to college, they should go to college. But that is not the path for everyone.

 

[Gearmunky]

Luchini,

Dude, I couldn't agree with bobbysamd more. You and I were in the same boat, the only other thing I was interested in was history. I got to college and couldn't stand sitting in the classes, not to mention I was going to a college that I hated. I thought I couldn't fly for medical reasons of which turned out not to be true. I quit and enrolled in an aviation program at another private college and the rest is history. I had no direction because I'm the first in my family to fly and knew nothing about the business. The point of the matter is major in whatever you want it doesn't affect the outcome from a pilot's stand point. If you want to be a chief pilot later in life maybe it might help, but even then your experience as a pilot makes more of a difference not your degree. I've seen many jobs posted and none were ever, EVER degree specific. And get a degree, that is your first priority if you want an airline job the time takes precedence, but think about it, if another 9/11 or some other rediculous bullsh*t happens it's going to leave you up a creek without a paddle. Your going to be furloghed and working at a job you absolutely cannot stand until your number gets called to go back, if ever. Nothing against airline pilots at all, if you get in at the right time and ride it out you'll be making good money and have a schedule other professions in your salary bracket would kill for. Most corporate jobs ask for a degree.

Start flying now while you decide, it can't hurt.If you can pay your way that's fine if you can't loans are the only other option, if you don't have the money and you try to pay by the lesson your wasting both time and money. I know people who got the time before the degree and are miserable trying to catch up. Get your commercial, intstrument ASAP and in the summers off from college drag rags up the beach and build your time and go back to school during the winter and work on your multi and CFI. Most of those jobs pay for your housing and the flying is seat of your pants (a little dangerous, but hell when is flying not?)

No one can draw out your life's plans but you. If you talk to every pilot they all got their time in different ways, but it's better to have degree and not be able to apply because of time than have the time and not be able to get a job because of a degree. Time is easier to get than a degree, and a lot more fun There's a lot of ways to do it. I don't have much time, but I don't instruct yet either. I have other ways of building time. Whatever you decide as a major do what you like, if you like history major in that, become a teacher as a back-up profession. And if your flying career goes well and you don't need to teach, you'll still make one helluva good Jeopardy player. Good Luck.

 

[Luchini]

Yea definetly gonna get my degree. I always pondered the idea of teaching, especially teaching in history but I dunno about having to wake up 6 AM Mon-Fri. It would be a good backup plan though. I could always get flight time after school and on the weekends while teaching.

 

[Paul McCartney]

A degree is all you really need, what it's in doesn't matter. Having a degree in a field with no related experience isn't going to get you a job "to fall back on" any more than a regular BS in Aviation will get you a job in a office. Hiring managers generally don't care what your major is, unless it is a very specific job like Engineering or Architechture. The important thing is that you'll have one. Also, I know of several people who have gone on to Grad school with a degree in "Airplanes" and majored in things other than aviation. One is even a lawyer now, one an MBA. (Myself included)

As for licenses and ratings, I would combine college and flying both for ease of credits and financial aid. I learned to fly at an FBO, and it was great for me. I got the college degree in Airplanes the old fashinoned way. It was cheaper, and I used leftover financial aid to pay for flight time. Just a thought.

Finally, I would stay away from YIP's advice to do the online degree to jump start your flying career. He has a point that seniority and flight time are valueable, but so is having a life. I actually graduated from college early to get a head start and it paid off to an extent professionally, but I regret some of the "college experience" I missed. After all you are only young once, and you will have plenty of time to work after school. Online classes are harder IMHO. I did my MBA online, and it was quite challenging. Not so much the coursework, but time management. I did my BS in 3 years and it took me 3 1/2 to do the MBA that should have taken half that. Plus I know several people who thought they would go back to finish their BS that never did and it has constantly been a thorn in their side.

Best of luck to you in the future.

 

[Clyde]

Luchini,

Yip's posts make it sound tempting to put off school and start flying right away. And yes, this story does happen to a few people, and I emphasize the word FEW.

Now, there are a few variables here that are not mentioned. First, even though this kid is gaining valuable experience early, who in the forseeable future is going to begin hiring anytime soon? If the goal is American, Delta, or Northwest for example, it may be several years before they even begin to hire off the street. And, chances are they are not going to be like the airlines we grew up with. Pay and schedules are going to be a lot different to ensure those companies remain competitive and profitable.

Second, I flew for a company at YIP that was a competitor to USA Jet. It's not easy work. This kid is going to fly his butt off. He is going to be on a pager, not know when his next trip his, or how long he will be in a given hotel. Not saying anything bad about USA Jet or any of it's competition, but it's not easy work and it's not for everyone. If he likes it great, but what if he doesen't and is stuck there for a while?

Third, stability. Again, I am in no way speculating on or otherwise speaking about USA Jet's financial health. That is my disclaimer. I am however, cautioning about the fact that companies which haul freight on demand can be here one day and close up shop the next. It's happened, it happens today, and it will continue to happen. A lot of guys out there have the resumes to prove it.

Here's my point: Get college done first and learn something (non-aviation, in my opinion) such as a skill that will make you marketable and put food on your table. Then, learn to fly. Do it during the summers when you're off, or wait until college is done.

Contrary to what Kit Darby is telling everyone, there isn't going to be any hiring for a long time, so there is no need to be in a panic about getting on somewhere quick. Remember, you are 21 years old, and youth is on your side. Although I have nothing negative to say about the regional's, I don't consider them career goals. If it takes the majors 10 years from now to begin hiring (and that is a definite possibility) you will only be 31. If you finish college two years from now at 23, gather all your ratings at 24, and begin flying and building time, that would give you 7 years to get qualified, assuming hiring begins by that time. I think you would be able to gather a lot of good experience in that time.

If you remember only one thing, remember this: A degree on your wall and a very good skill in your back pocket are things you will always have with you. The only guarantee in aviation is change, and sometimes that change will NOT always be in your favor.

My $0.02

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Luchini,

Yip's posts make it sound tempting to put off school and start flying right away. And yes, this story does happen to a few people, and I emphasize the word FEW.

Now, there are a few variables here that are not mentioned. First, even though this kid is gaining valuable experience early, who in the forseeable future is going to begin hiring anytime soon? If the goal is American, Delta, or Northwest for example, it may be several years before they even begin to hire off the street. And, chances are they are not going to be like the airlines we grew up with. Pay and schedules are going to be a lot different to ensure those companies remain competitive and profitable.

Second, I flew for a company at YIP that was a competitor to USA Jet. It's not easy work. This kid is going to fly his butt off. He is going to be on a pager, not know when his next trip his, or how long he will be in a given hotel. Not saying anything bad about USA Jet or any of it's competition, but it's not easy work and it's not for everyone. If he likes it great, but what if he doesen't and is stuck there for a while?

Third, stability. Again, I am in no way speculating on or otherwise speaking about USA Jet's financial health. That is my disclaimer. I am however, cautioning about the fact that companies which haul freight on demand can be here one day and close up shop the next. It's happened, it happens today, and it will continue to happen. A lot of guys out there have the resumes to prove it.

Here's my point: Get college done first and learn something (non-aviation, in my opinion) such as a skill that will make you marketable and put food on your table. Then, learn to fly. Do it during the summers when you're off, or wait until college is done.

Contrary to what Kit Darby is telling everyone, there isn't going to be any hiring for a long time, so there is no need to be in a panic about getting on somewhere quick. Remember, you are 21 years old, and youth is on your side. Although I have nothing negative to say about the regional's, I don't consider them career goals. If it takes the majors 10 years from now to begin hiring (and that is a definite possibility) you will only be 31. If you finish college two years from now at 23, gather all your ratings at 24, and begin flying and building time, that would give you 7 years to get qualified, assuming hiring begins by that time. I think you would be able to gather a lot of good experience in that time.

If you remember only one thing, remember this: A degree on your wall and a very good skill in your back pocket are things you will always have with you. The only guarantee in aviation is change, and sometimes that change will NOT always be in your favor.

My $0.02

Clyde, good, well thought advice. My highlight in red up there. Would you expect anything else from Kit Darby? All he wants to do is sell $400.00 memberships. He's a creep.

 

[Clyde]

Clyde, good, well thought advice. My highlight in red up there. Would you expect anything else from Kit Darby? All he wants to do is sell $400.00 memberships. He's a creep.

FlyFast,

Excellent post and I agree with you 100%.

 

[pilotyip]

Different Opinion

My sample kid is going have head of the line privileges when hiring boom starts in June of 2007. He will 5000TT, 4500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC and a college degree from his on-line university. I have seen too many non-degreed guys succeed. During the last hiring boom, we had pilots without degrees hired by the majors based upon the quality of their flight time. It works, I have seen it. I believe you are giving bad advice to those who want to pursue an alternate path to a career cockpit position.

 

[Clyde]

My sample kid is going have head of the line privileges when hiring boom starts in June of 2007. He will 5000TT, 4500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC and a college degree from his on-line university. I have seen too many non-degreed guys succeed. During the last hiring boom, we had pilots without degrees hired by the majors based upon the quality of their flight time. It works, I have seen it. I believe you are giving bad advice to those who want to pursue an alternate path to a career cockpit position.

What boom and where did 2007 come from? If every furloughed pilot were recalled today and requalified, the airlines still wouldn't have them all done by 2007. Maybe 2008, but that's really pushing it. Then, and only then, could they begin interviewing off the streets. Also, you're assuming the airlines are profitable by then. True, some are starting to show a small profit, but they are going to have to be consistenly profitable for a number of quarters (if not years) before they are healthy enough to hire. And, BTW, the reason some are turning profits is due to more work with less people for decreased wages and benefits. i.e., productivity. I doubt they are in a hurry to fil the classrooms.

The only way "wonder-kid" is going to have any head of the line privileges anywhere is by knowing someone. I've seen a lot of people with 10,000 hours, and clean records never get anywhere with a major. Time is one thing, but it's who you know that gets you the interview.

Not doubting many people without degrees got hired by majors during the last boom, but how many of them are still employed at their respective majors? And, if they are fuloughed, what are they doing now? I'll bet many out there with an education in addition to flying are doing something in another industry.

I was hired towards the end of the last boom, and I am thankfully still very much employed. In my new-hire class, there were 18 of us, including me. Out of 18, ONE person did not have a degree. So, out of 18 people chosen to be hired for this class, 0.05% did not have a degree. That looks like very good odds.

When the majors do begin hiring again, that "hiring boom" is probably not going to be nearly as big as the last one. In other words, they are going to hire less people. There are a lot of people out there who will be competing for those jobs. The degree may become even more important to have than it traditionally has been in the past.

Bottom line is this: if you want to fly for a major airline, get yourself as qualified as you can. Degree (or degrees), flight time (quantity and quality), and make contacts. A lot of people are going to be applying for these jobs. Do something to make yourself stand out in a positive way that will be different from the thousands of other applicants.

Again, my $0.02.

 

[bobbysamd]

Go to the back of the line

My sample kid is going have head of the line privileges when hiring boom starts in June of 2007. He will 5000TT, 4500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC and a college degree from his on-line university. I have seen too many non-degreed guys succeed. During the last hiring boom, we had pilots without degrees hired by the majors based upon the quality of their flight time. It works, I have seen it. I believe you are giving bad advice to those who want to pursue an alternate path to a career cockpit position.

Actually, military pilots will have head-of-the-line privileges. They always do. They will have, typically, 3000+ total, with nearly all of that multi-turbine, and a significant amount of that "TJ PIC." Their training will be a known quantity, their equipment will be known, their flight experience will be known quantities, and, being officers, generally, they will be known quantities. No doubt about it, your sample kid will have received great experience flying for your company and could still be a desirable applicant, but when compared to his military competition, he won't be able to carry their hard hats.

No, Yip, you are giving, at the least, deceptive advice, if not bad advice. As was said above, how do you know for sure that a hiring boom will start in June, 2007? Based on history repeating itself, it is possible, but not for sure. And, once more, unlike your company, most other companies in the league in which you play either want the degree or some college. These companies can get plenty of applicants who have either, and applicants without will get short shrift.

One other point. Mom and Dad will just love it when Junior comes to them and proclaims, "I want to be a pilot. I'm not going to college after high school." "But, son/young lady, don't you need a college education?" "No, Pilotyip on flightinfo.com hires pilots, and he says I don't have to go to college now and I should start flying and go to work."

Finally, after Junior is hired but is furloughed, he/she might have all this great flight time and turbine time, and a high school diploma, probably because he/she was having such a great time flying that he/she didn't register for online college. He/she needs a job to wait out the furlough. What job will he/she get? Maybe flight instructing, if he/she got his/her CFI. More likely, Safeway, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, or Bed, Bath & Beyond. Bearing in mind that many of these places employ people for only 30-35 hours a week to get out of paying benefits.

If getting flight time early is such a major priority, a good, organized student can go to summer school and maybe take AP classes. He/she can graduate in January instead of June, maybe receive college credit for the AP classes, start college immediately, go to summer school, and maybe graduate at age 20.