College Flight Aviation or not?

[Luchini]

Hello everyone. Long time reader first time poster. Ive always been fascinated with being a pilot and after months of consideration Ive decided to give it a shot. Ive worked quite a few different jobs, mostly retail sales jobs and havent been satisfied. There has always been this feeling that something is missing and have decided being an aviator would fill it. While working full time for the past 3 years I am just not finishing up my AA degree and plan on getting my BA or BS. My question is would you veterans out there reccommend going to a colleigate aviation school or a national flight program such ATP?

Ive been leaning more towards the college aviation route. Figure I can kill two birds with one stone with getting my BS and my flight training. Then again it would probably only take me a year to get all my ratings after college. I am probaby gonna get my BA in History if I dont do the flight program. But then again college aviation I think provides more training then a regular flight school. I live in WA and am considering Central Washington University Flight Technology program. (www.cwu.edu) On top of regular tuition it cost $40,300 for all ratings up to CFII. They also have a direct hire program with Horizon Air in which if you get good grades etc. etc. you can interview with Horizon Air and also have internships with Horizon and Alaska. They said if I can come in with a Private and Instrument ratings I can probably graduate in 2 years instead of 4.

Right now Im 21 yrs old and am graduating with my AA in June. From there I will attend CWU and get my degree in 2 years. These two are for sure. Im really not sure what to do about flight training now though. Im kinda stuck in a crossroads. When I go back to school in September I will be making a $1000 a month part time and the only expense I have is my car loan which is 225 a month. What would some of you guys do if you were in my shoes? Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

College flight programs

Ive been leaning more towards the college aviation route. Figure I can kill two birds with one stone with getting my BS and my flight training. Then again it would probably only take me a year to get all my ratings after college. I am probaby gonna get my BA in History if I dont do the flight program. But then again college aviation I think provides more training then a regular flight school.

I happen to like an aviation-oriented college degree, but it's far more important to earn a four-year degree, in something, from an accredited college.

I like aviation programs because of the aeronautical knowledge one receives. You will likely spend some time getting all your ground school, meteorology, flight phys, systems and technical writing, as opposed to a great many commercial flight schools, which tend to cram it down your throat. I have instructed in both kinds of programs, at ERAU, at FlightSafety, and at MAPD, which would be almost a hybrid college program-commercial flight school, so I feel I know.

Except for training philosophies, there isn't much difference between commercial schools and college programs in terms of the quantity of flight training. You'll receive enough instruction to be trained to proficiency. Once you meet standards for a particular course phase, you won't receive any more training, even if you think you need it.

They also have a direct hire program with Horizon Air in which if you get good grades etc. etc. you can interview with Horizon Air and also have internships with Horizon and Alaska.

I would be skeptical of the former. The internships are the true drawing card and what you really want out of the program. The internships can very well lead to a job with these airline, once you meet their quals. Internships and not the alleged direct-hire programs are the true plus.

They said if I can come in with a Private and Instrument ratings I can probably graduate in 2 years instead of 4.

They might give you academic credit for your ratings, which would be great, but you might have to test out of their programs before they award credit. If you fail, you might have to take their Private and/or Instrument courses, even though you already have your ratings. Students with ratings went through that process at ERAU. We found that many of them could not fly as well as our home-grown Riddlers. A lot depends on the school.

Having said all that, if you like CWU and it's what you want to do, then I would do it. It might not hurt to do some comparison shopping of other aviation college programs before making a decision.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[alberchico]

Dont go to an aviation college.Getting a degree in aircraft operations will not help you if you get furloughed.Go to a regular college and get a degree in anything that interests you.Then go to a ab-initio program such as Flight Safety or Pan Am Flight Academy .They both have an excellent record of placing graduates in decent jobs.Going to your local flight school and doing it the old-fashioned way will not work.Graduates of these programs can secure jobs with lower hours than people who went to some unknown flight school out in the middle of nowhere.Some airlines such as Comair,only interview canidates that graduate from their flight academies.(Comair Flight Academy)

 

[Goose Egg]

Going to your local flight school and doing it the old-fashioned way will not work.(Comair Flight Academy)

I don't necessarily agree with that. There are plenty of sucess stories coming from the FBO ranks. It's all a matter of being in the right place at the right time. True, FBO training isn't my preferred method of training, but then again, niether is the Ab $n$t$o programs.

You never know what is going to happen. For example, I graduated from to a western college with connections to SkyWest. Am I flying for Skywest? No. I now instruct at a New England college with connections to different, east coast regionals, but definitely not SkyWest.

Oh, and just for the record, my education was ultra cheap. I've heard stories of $35K through $50k of loans for flight programs. I owe $18k.

Anyway, find the method of training that will work best for you. I hated the lack of structure at an FBO. I liked how college programs have academic classes to make you a more rounded aviator. It was a good fit for me. Find what's a good fit for you.

 

[H25BCPTN]

Become a Doctor and buy an aircraft. Love the job but I know alot of friends that did not make it. I pray that it does get better soon. When you have over 10,000 applications on file with any given major and they are going to hire maybe 200-300 for the year, the numbers don't add up with how many young, bright kids that are entering into aviation. We have alot of great pilots in my company with over 5,000 hours and lots of PIC jet time not getting a call for an interview. If it is your passion and that is where God wants you to go, then go for it.

Good Luck

Fly Safe

 

[Beer&Brauts]

You might also consider going to a school with an aviation program and getting a degree in something non-aviation, and taking aviation classes as electives.

 

[Clyde]

Luchini,

I hope my advice can be of help to you. I went to an accredited 4-year college with an aviation program and earned a B.S. in Aviation Technology. Earned my private, CFI, CFII, MEII at flight schools at the local airport, and the remainder at the University. Hindsight is always 20/20, and even though I have been very blessed in my chosen career so far, I would offer up a different approach to someone just starting out.

FLYING LESSONS:
Should one take lessons at an FBO or a collegiate aviation program? The answer is, it really doesen't matter. What's important however, is the quality of the training you receive. If you decide to go to a local FBO, go to several of them and compare not only price, but facilities, aircraft, instructors, and availability. There are many FBO's and local flight schools out there. Some are very good, and some are not. The same holds true for academies and colleges. In the end, you will be issued certificates and ratings from the FAA, and they all look the same, no matter where you went. The only constant, is that you have to work for them.

COLLEGE
What kind of degree should you get? There is no question you should pursue something that makes you happy. However, due to the cyclical nature of the airlines, you should also also be asking this question: What kind of degree is going to give me the education and/or skillset which will make me very marketable. In other words, I don't recommend a degree in aviation. I have one and I am fortunate to be flying for a secure major airline, but outside of this it is useless. You may need to have a non-aviation skill to help you financially by using it on days off while flight instructing or building hours flying for someone who doesen't consider your salary much of an expense. For example, if I were starting over again, I would probably pursue a degree in something like nursing for example. Unlike aviation, a lot of my friends and family who are in this profession can go anywhere for a job and earn a very decent living. This could be a beneficial tool in the event of a furlough or recessed pilot job market. Also, once you make it to your desired aviation goal, you may still be able to use a skill on your days off for added income. Bottom line is this: most airlines are going to require you to have a 4 year degree from an accredited university. It makes no difference what you majored in. In my new-hire class of 20 pilots, only 4 of us had aviation degrees. One guy had no degree.

INTERNSHIPS AND GUARANTEED INTERVIEWS
When I was in college, I did an internship with American Airlines, and had a very pleasant experience. This opportunity was afforded to me because I was enrolled in the college's aviation program. It was a great learning experience, made a lot of friends, and was granted an interview about 5 years out of college. However, I ended up interviewing and accepting a job at another major. The experience, as I mentioned earlier, was a very positive one, but it didn't make or break my career. Just gave me some added insight.
When a school promises an internship or an interview, read the fine print. Anybody can guarantee and offer an unlimited number of interviews, but how many firm job offers can they guarantee. Internships can make you contacts inside an airline, but you still have to build the hours to get there, and at best they may only be able to help you get the interview, you have to earn the job offer. The economy and law of supply and demand will dictate how many pilots get hired.

WHERE TO GO FROM HERE
This is my $0.02, but here is what I would do. Get a degree in something that will put food on your table and allow you to secure employment in a field that is stable. I would concentrate on getting the degree first. Then, upon graduation, I would begin my flight training. Whether an FBO, local flight school, or academy, as long as I'm not overspending, but I am getting good, quality, instructing. (As a side note, you can use your new degree in your non-aviation career to help you finance your lessons. This may prevent you from having to borrow money). Upon finishing flight training, I would begin the process of instructing and hunting for flying work to make me marketable for my ultimate flying goal. Again, your other job can help pay the bills while the boss is paying you $200.00 a week (before taxes) to instruct. Trust me, I've been there, and the pay was 200 bucks a week, in a good week. As your building time, constantly evaluate the pilot job market, your current position, your current income level, current quality of life, and when/if you can increase those standards positively in aviation.

Also, looking at your age, the military may be a very viable option. Not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but very rewarding nonetheless. If you are able, I would investigate any possible opportunities to fly in a Reserve or Air National Guard unit. And, if it's me, I would concentrate on the heavies. i.e, tankers, transports.

I hope this information helps. No matter which route you take, it is going to require a lot of work. Be safe and be wise. Also, be careful what people promise you. It is tempting to go to a place which advertises interviews and such, but be sure to read the fine print. Flight schools and academies are business and they have to make money. Differentiate between possible positive opportunities for yourself and marketing schemes to attract students.

 

[flyflorida2001]

Hey,


I am a senior at Florida Tech in the aviation management program. I personally would go with the aviation college. I am currently interning with JetBlue Airways, and I have a friend from Central Washington State (you mentioned you were lookin there) who is interning at JetBlue right now as well. I have enjoyed learning about and being around people intrested in aviation. Aviation schools afford you oppurtunities that others dont (like internships). I agree that you need a back up in case of a furlough. I for one am in the aviation management program which is a business degree. So do your homework and check around...but I think that is the best option.

 

[Gearmunky]

To add a little bit more, I just graduated with a B.S. in Aviation Management back in January. I did not go to one of these "zero to hero" (no offense, they have their place) flight schools, and got all of my ratings at a smaller school. Learning to fly is and should be fun. The people I have talked to say that these big "Captain in a Year" schools are accelerated programs where the whole idea is to turn your learning experience into a money making puppy mill for the company and screw your personal experience. The advantage to one of these schools is their contacts to employment, I don't think the airlines are quite for me so I wasn't interested in them to begin with. Also, I think these schools are ruining the industry because they promote themselves to their respective airlines and only hire there own (Comair). Where does the kid whose dad has a cub in a barn, and a friend with a twin get a chance of getting a good job?
I went to a small private college and, when other kids were drooling asleep in class just to fill their electives and what not, I was out boring holes in the sky for credits. Don't worry about getting a degree outside of aviation, If you look at the stats most people do something totally different from their degree anyway. Do what you like. I chose to get an aviation degree because everything else seemed boring, flying is expensive as hell, and it counted towards my degree. Flying may count as electives toward another degree, but you need to do your homework. Picking a good college still applies as it does to careers outside the industry. Embry Riddle supposedly has a good name but is expensive as hell. On the latter side, I have met many a chief pilot who won't hire their graduates, but then again I have met many a graduate whose flight department is all they hire. Personally, I like to pride myself in thinking that I've been building my career on hard work, perseverance, and fun. Not because I've bought my way into a job.
Work hard, fly hard, and while this business seems huge it is EXTREMELY tight knit, and character means a lot. Good Luck.

 

[Luchini]

Wow lots of good input, thanks guys. Some of you seem to say collegiate aviation is the route to go while others disagree. Im still stuck halfway between the two. The only other thing I like besides aviation is history. Oh and video games! I would prefer to major in one of these fields as I would actually excited or at least not loathe going to classes while in school.

I did consider flying with the military. But my vision isnt up to far, I already checked.

Another thing I have been considering is enlisting in the Air Force or Navy active duty for 3 or 4 years and getting my degree while active duty. It would save me in tuition costs (about $30,000 for 2 years on at a state university) and I could use the GI bill for up to 60% of flight training costs. I could also learn a skill in the service that I could use in civilian life. But then again that would take 3-5 years out of flight time and from what Ive heard building as much flight time as possible is what will get you hired.

I think my short term aviation goal after I get all my ratings is getting hired as a CFI for a couple years. Then after that getting hired into the regionals.

I am quickly learning that this profession is unlike most other professions where in more traditional jobs your actual skills are more important then seniority and experience you can log in a book. In my current line of work (sales, specfically wireless sales) Ive seen people promoted to management in as little as 2 years and sometimes less. I dont think Ive ever heard of someone being promoted to captain in less then 2 years.

 

[bobbysamd]

Avatar aside

You might also consider going to a school with an aviation program and getting a degree in something non-aviation, and taking aviation classes as electives.

I like your Quentin Griffin avatar!

 

[Clyde]

Wow lots of good input, thanks guys. Some of you seem to say collegiate aviation is the route to go while others disagree. Im still stuck halfway between the two. The only other thing I like besides aviation is history. Oh and video games! I would prefer to major in one of these fields as I would actually excited or at least not loathe going to classes while in school.

I did consider flying with the military. But my vision isnt up to far, I already checked.

Another thing I have been considering is enlisting in the Air Force or Navy active duty for 3 or 4 years and getting my degree while active duty. It would save me in tuition costs (about $30,000 for 2 years on at a state university) and I could use the GI bill for up to 60% of flight training costs. I could also learn a skill in the service that I could use in civilian life. But then again that would take 3-5 years out of flight time and from what Ive heard building as much flight time as possible is what will get you hired.

I think my short term aviation goal after I get all my ratings is getting hired as a CFI for a couple years. Then after that getting hired into the regionals.

I am quickly learning that this profession is unlike most other professions where in more traditional jobs your actual skills are more important then seniority and experience you can log in a book. In my current line of work (sales, specfically wireless sales) Ive seen people promoted to management in as little as 2 years and sometimes less. I dont think Ive ever heard of someone being promoted to captain in less then 2 years.

Luchini,

Have you considered enlisting in the Reserves or ANG? Unless activated to full-time service, your commitment would allow you serve part-time and you can still go to college. Also, see what they can do for helping with college tuition.
When I was in college, I knew people that were in the Air National Guard part-time, and the government was helping with their tuition. And you were correct, you might be able to learn a very valuable skill.

About the degree, don't worry about whether or not it's aviation.

 

[unreal]

I'm going to be perfectly honest...

If I could do it over again, would I have started a Bachelor's degree in aviation? Nah.

Seriously, you're going to save yourself time and money by getting your ratings on your own at an FBO/accelerated program/etc. instead of at a big university. Also, getting your degree in something besides aviation will give you something to fall back on should something keep you out of the air.

If you're dead-set on going, best of luck to you. But keep in mind that many of these places will pump you chock-full of propaganda to get you to enroll. They'll tell you all sorts of stories about how your resume will be on the bottom of the stack if you don't get their degree.

That's BS. All you need is a 4-year degree (in anything!) and the appropriate ratings to get that job you're looking for.

 

[pilotyip]

College Degree

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We just hired a 20 year old pilot, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is starting as a DA-20 F/O at 33K, he will be a DA-20 Capt the day he turns 23, he feels he will have his degree completed by the time he is 25 or 26 years old. At that time he should have 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He will have his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job, The traditional 4 yr degree guy who has TT 1200 350 MEL 15 Turbine. Who is the more competitive?

As I have posted before you can fly full time and do your degree on the side on-line, but you can not be a full time on-campus student and build Turbo Jet PIC. Airline jobs go to those with Part 121 Turbo Jet PIC time in the 1,000's of hours, the degree is not needed, and I am talking about great jobs at AirTran, Spirit and Jet blue. Airlines that do not let the degree thing get in the way of picking up a highly qualified pilot. I have seen it happen too many times.

 

[bobbysamd]

Online degree v. on-campus degree

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We just hired a 20 year old pilot, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is starting as a DA-20 F/O at 33K, he will be a DA-20 Capt the day he turns 23, he feels he will have his degree completed by the time he is 25 or 26 years old. At that time he should have 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He will have his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job, The traditional 4 yr degree guy who has TT 1200 350 MEL 15 Turbine. Who is the more competitive?

Yip always fails to consider several points when he makes his argument: (1) His "model" is highly atypical. Few 18-year-olds get hired to fly Metros; (2) Many aviation employers besides airlines look for the degree and not having it eliminates you from consideration; and, last but not least (3) completing non-campus academic programs, such as online programs and correspondence schools, takes a great amount of discipline and initiative. Few people have such discipline and initiative. After one is working, it is all too easy to put school aside and never even begin, much less finish.

Why even bother with high school if building hours early is the name of the game? Drop out, get your G.E.D., solo at 16, Private at 17, and Commercial at 18. School's a drag, right?

Go with your plan. Go to college, on-campus, get your degree, and get it out of the way. If you can work in flying some way, fine, but at this point the degree take precedence. Go to summer school if you want to finish quicker.

 

[pilotyip]

Not atypical

I have seen too many succeed in the sense of making a living flying airplanes. They all started early and flew airplanes until they got the job they wanted. I have nothing against the college degree, but pursuit of an aviation degree without logging quality flight time puts you behind the hiring curve. TJ PIC gets you the job. Part 121 TJ PIC without a degree will open more doors than a degree without Part 121 TJ PIC time. You have to decide what you want to do; going to school is fun, if you are looking for fun, go to school. If you want to be a pilot, start flying airplanes. Think of this logic, 97% of the pilots hired have college degrees, 97% of the pilots who applied had college degrees. What about the other 3%?

 

[bobbysamd]

Circular reasoning

I have seen too many succeed in the sense of making a living flying airplanes. They all started early and flew airplanes until they got the job they wanted. I have nothing against the college degree, but pursuit of an aviation degree without logging quality flight time puts you behind the hiring curve. TJ PIC gets you the job. Part 121 TJ PIC without a degree will open more doors than a degree without Part 121 TJ PIC time.

(emphasis added)

This is a closed-loop. Maybe with the exception of your company, Yip, you need the degree to get the job. You might still get the job without the degree, but you will be at a disadvantage to those who have it. Why start off at something when the playing field is tilted against you? In other words, you need the degree to get the Part 121 TJ PIC because the Part 121 TJ companies prefer such people.

You have to decide what you want to do; going to school is fun, if you are looking for fun, go to school.

That is ridiculous, Yip. Do you think the kids who go to Harvard and Yale are going there strictly to have fun? Or to any of the military academies? For that matter, any other school? I do realize that many kids who go to college barely go to classes, party hearty all four years and cram enough to pass their finals, but I'm not talking about them. Most kids who go to college are at least somewhat serious about getting an education.

I never thought school was much fun; in fact I found it to be a chore and somewhat boring. But I also realized that I needed a college education to improve and promote my chances for success, whatever I chose to do. The same reasoning applies to pilots.

In addition, not all colleges are party schools. There are plenty of colleges that are urban-oriented, with few activities and no dorms or frats. People go to these schools because they want an education only and not get drunk on Greek Weekend.

Think of this logic, 97% of the pilots hired have college degrees, 97% of the pilots who applied had college degrees. What about the other 3%?

97 to 3 against. I don't think I like those odds.

Don't try to beat the odds. Level the playing field. Get the degree.

 

[pilotyip]

Harvard? Yale?

We are not talking about those schools; we are talking about a level well below the Ivy League. Those schools are not known diploma mills for college degree aspiring pilot candidates. You do not need the degree to get TJ PIC, there is only about three airlines hiring right now that make a degree a showstopper. All of the regionals could care less about a degree; they look at the individual and what they bring to the show. Let’s check those odds (97% of the pilots applying have a degree /97% those applying with degree get hired) is the same ratio as (3% without degree apply /3% without degree get hired) It is not a 97 to 3 ratio. There are many good reasons to get a degree, but their importance in getting into aviation is misplaced. You can go to school on-line while building quality flight time; you can not build quality flight time while going to school full time. It is a matter of timing.

 

[bobbysamd]

Work as a "showstopper"

You can go to school on-line while building quality flight time; you can not build quality flight time while going to school full time. It is a matter of timing.

You're missing the point. Get your education first. Once more, you do one and then do the other. A college degree improves your chances of being hired. Get it first and get it out of the way and/or consider a college flight program. So many people who work never start college or take many years to finish it.

Flight time and certificates without the degree are, well . . . . . flight time and certificates. Neither will do much good for you if no one needs you. The degree will open many doors.

 

[Luchini]

I tend to agree more with bobbysamd. Having a degree only opens up oppurtunities for any job. America is a country based on credentials for employment and having a degree is one of the most important credentials one can get. Just trying to decide whether a aviation degree or a non aviation degree is best for me.