COLGANS!!!!! Union????

[Smarta$$]

Here is a thought......

PSA and Piedmont are both wholly owned by USAir.....do they have anything in common? Do they have one seniority list? 9E people think they bought Colgan....look at it from a corporate stance....we are both equally owned by a mother company...like Piedmont and PSA....

There will be no integration of the list or the flying......

No loss to the industry but if things do not stay "Colgan Like" the Colgan side will lose half of the pilots.....

Most of them will be from the left seat...so there goes the profits...upgrades and new hires....like $40,000 every time a captain leaves...try to grow and make money like that.....

And I have to go with the stance......What does ALPA care about a little airline with 350 pilots....ALPA has done so much for other carriers...iof Colgan does anything they should go Teamsters.....Ask any NJA guy or Airborne guy...much better contracts...

You don't understand the relationship. PSA and piedmont are not one seniorty list because the controlling companies scope(US Mainline) does not require it. Ours does.

I think that much of Colgan should and will remain colgan like. Except that the pilots will be on ONE master list. As for Alpa not caring about 350 little pilots, I think they do. I know they do care about the 1250 9E pilots that they represent. You are just asking for a whipsaw.

 

[turbinej]

Colgan boys and Gals. The only way you will be screwed is by staying nonunion or your little union in house. Those in the past who have been nonunion or represented by a different union other that the aquiring carrier has been screwed and put on the bottom of the list. Look at Reno Air when American aquired them also TWA. Fences were put up for both. All those guys got screwed because of a different union. AMR is APA and Reno was their own union if not ALPA like TWA. If you were ALPA you would not be screwed, because this is what is going to happen if term are not agreed upon then an abritrator will decide on how the senority list will be mergered. There may be a fence such as for every 5 PNCL pilot there might be 2 Colgan pilots in place. If there is a big gap where no hiring was done at pncl and colgan pilot fit in that gap then they may be placed there. Their is more to a merged pilot list than staple to the bottom. If you are a nonunion there is a good chance that you all may be stapled to the bottom. I work for a legacy carrier and based on the last union meeting from our merger commitee these are some of the fact that they had presented. No I do not work for USairways. Talk to the boys at Piedmont when the pilot from Alleganhy merged into the Piedmont senority list. CC Air that merged into the MESA list. CC Air pilots got screwed If I recall correctly. Nearly took them a couple of years to get their jobs back because they were non union if I recall. Talk to the bays and gals at ASA and SKYWEST. Skywest was nonunion and still believe that they are and ASA was ALPA. I know all the American Eagle guys got DOH when they all mergered senority list. Do you remember Business Express as a Delta Connention out of BOS, when AMR eagle aquired them 1999 (ALPA) they got DOH as well. From my 16 years of flying is always seem that the nonunion carrier gets screwed when merging into a union carriers pilot senority list. Talk to some of the major airline pilots out their that has gone through mergers and ask them. NWA and Republic was an ugly merger among pilots. There were fences put up as well.

 

[turbinej]

A good example of two seperate companies and one list is Amr Eagle and Executive airlines out of San Juan, PR. Executive guys are on AMR eagle senority list but get their paychecks from Executive airlines not AMR. Look at Chautaqua and Republic airlines as well.

 

[iflyjets4food]

Time-out for rule spewing.

The 1900 at some of the EAS airports has to do with the ARFF available and the number of seats. When you fly an airplane with more than 19 seats into some airports that airport has to have a sufficient ARFF index.


Play Ball!

 

[dingo222]

thats what i meant, thats why we cant put saabs on some of them. I just dont know which airports they are

 

[bigboeings]

Thats what I was wondering, Im sure they would have gotten rid of the 1900 long ago if they could legally put a SAAB in there. I was just wondering if they were going to give up those routes.

 

[dingo222]

im sure colgan would hold them as long as they could keep the 1900's running

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

This is so cool! We have twice as many post in our threads now. COLGAN RULES! When is ALPA going to ask me to join? I want the magazine. I heard a rumor that someone is getting the Teamsters involved with Colgan. Can we use the Flagship callsign yet? I have been is that cool my new brothers from a different mother? LOL i just got an email from company asking me if I want to go to the CRJ awesome!

 

[AftCG182]

Once again, the voice of reason must speak. They aren't going to get rid of the Beech. The Beech fills in the holes when the Saabs aren't feeling so well. Let me reference last nights PinniColganoscopy as evidence.

 

[redflyer65]

CAUTION, Speculation.......

Just maybe PCL bought Colgan so they can gradually take over the SAAB flying of Mesaba. Mesaba will morph into a Compass type company flying EMB equipment for Northwest. Then when NWA is good a ready, the will spin them with an IPO.

Why would they want someone to take over Mesaba's Saabs? Because of the TA snap back provisions. This may be very well orchestrated. We'll see.

 

[tyuwerty]

You guys at Colgan really need to review the CHQ - Shuttle America aquisition.... In terms of size and equipment it is the one that most closely resembles your situation.

Bigger RJ operators do not just buy smaller certificates without a reason or alterior motive. The "foot in the door" reason to get at the Colgan code shares just doesn't seem to be worth the price tag.

I genuinely hope that you fare better than the Shuttle America pilots did. When it was all said and done, not one Shuttle America Captain remained in the left seat at the "new" company.

 

[TurboAWD]

If anyone at Colgan thinks that Pinnacle mgmt will let you continue to do things they way they have been in the past, you are dreaming.

You will need a Union to help you battle these guys (mgmt).

Turbo

 

[PCL_128]

CAUTION, Speculation.......

Just maybe PCL bought Colgan so they can gradually take over the SAAB flying of Mesaba. Mesaba will morph into a Compass type company flying EMB equipment for Northwest. Then when NWA is good a ready, the will spin them with an IPO.

Why would they want someone to take over Mesaba's Saabs? Because of the TA snap back provisions. This may be very well orchestrated. We'll see.

That's actually an interesting theory. I hadn't considered that possibility.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Colgan Pilots:

Your consideration for representation is required. In the end you will get to choose.....

Sooner rather than later changes will occur. They may be upfront, gradual or disguised....

The issue:

As these changes are being made, if there is no central organization of the Colgan Pilots then the interest of Colgan Pilots cannot be addressed.

For example, if an issue is being addressed and PCL ALPA or PCL management want to know what the Colgan pilots think or what is in the best interest of the Colgan pilots, who will they ask? Quite possibly Colgan management.

I wish I worked for a family business like Colgan. However, Colgan now reports to PCL. They have sold the family business to Corp America for better or worse. How Corp America deals with labor maybe quite different from the Colgan Family.

Changes will be made. And Change is a good thing, especially if you are involved and a part of the process. Will you be a active player at the table of change?

PCL pilots support Colgan Pilots. Unified.

 

[suupah]

Yes, naked in new york. That is why I am asking you to work together in the best interest of BOTH pilot groups.

I never said you guys didn't not sacrifice. I have complete respect for your pilots. I was commenting on YOUR words about Colgan needing 9E investment to grow.

Colgan needed it? nope!! otherwise why are all the Colgans going to be out of the picture now that 9E is investing.

When offices move to memphis i am pretty sure the colgans will be DONE. I think they are just done with it.

 

[vtchaz]

There are many cheaper certificates around...

You guys at Colgan really need to review the CHQ - Shuttle America aquisition.... In terms of size and equipment it is the one that most closely resembles your situation.

Bigger RJ operators do not just buy smaller certificates without a reason or alterior motive. The "foot in the door" reason to get at the Colgan code shares just doesn't seem to be worth the price tag.

I genuinely hope that you fare better than the Shuttle America pilots did. When it was all said and done, not one Shuttle America Captain remained in the left seat at the "new" company.

If they wanted just an operation certificate, there are a lot available, for a lot less. Regions air comes to mind. They're tanking FAST, have FAR fewer planes and assets to sell (if you only want the certificate) and a LOT less than 1100 employees. Let's not pretend Colgan, while family run, is a "mom and pop" anymore.

This is not the same situation as with Shuttle/Republic. Thanks for your concern though. I think we'll be great.

 

[climbhappy]

as a former colganite, '03, just want to add my .02 cents.

yes to unionizing for these reasons:

1) it gives you a cohesive collective voice, you could even form your own LLC and at least hire an attorrney to represent you in any negotiations.

2) this cohesive voice will synthesize all of your separate voices into one for a unified expresssion of what you guys want out of this.

3) this means you're not a small shop anymore. So you have to act like it.
the colgans can't threaten or scare pilots through busted recurrent rides for taking a stand.

4) check me on this. if pinnacle is publicly traded, buy a few shares and at least be entitled to get quarterly reports and annual financial statements since all publicly traded and private companies have to provide these to their shareholders. this will allow you to at least know the numbers.

5) a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. you guys are clearly weaker without a cohesive voice articulated through a rep or council to get your needs and wants put forth to the pinnacle guys union rep and their management.

6) Senority integration. in the long run I think you will have to fight to join groups together. when i was at CC air and mesa bought us, this battle took place and at least our number one guy was number 7 at Mesa. Difference was Mesa guys wanted our contract and Ornstein wanted to bust our contract. Of course you know the rest, he shut it down by transferring flying and turning in old planes. High powered managers don't buy airplanes for the certificate value but for the leverage it gives them to re direct the assets of the airline and either grow it or make it go away.

BEst of luck you all of you in your new situation.

 

[WildBlue]

One of the big things I am hearing is the fear of being "stapled". If any Colgan pilot wants to know how something like that would be handled, why don't you contact someone at the Pinnacle MEC.

While I have not heard any discussion, I do know that the last time this was talked about was several years ago with the Mesaba guys when noises were being made that Pinnacle was going to buy Mesaba (or maybe the other way around). Anyway, the proposed integration, if it were to ever occur, would have been similar to straight hire date. The other method discussed was a percentile rank system.

Why would any Pinnacle pilot, who is talking about wanting to work with Colgan pilots, suggest a staple job?

These two groups need to start talking, fast. Unfortunately, there is no one at Colgan for our reps to talk to.

 

[Godfather]

These two groups need to start talking, fast. Unfortunately, there is no one at Colgan for our reps to talk to.[/quote]

Now there is...
Time for a sit down...Anyone on the PCL MEC plz PM me here ASAP

 

[Smarta$$]

Question?

Question for the smarter amongst us? If the 9E pilot Union and the Colgan pilots (or future union) agree to integrate, Can management stop it?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Question for the smarter amongst us? If the 9E pilot Union and the Colgan pilots (or future union) agree to integrate, Can management stop it?

Not sure.. the question though is coordination and usage.

As far as staple. No way. As a junior CA I am willing to to risk displacement to FO to prevent a staple job.....

Not sure what the numbers are, but Staple is not the way to go....

 

[n32jk]

One of the big things I am hearing is the fear of being "stapled". If any Colgan pilot wants to know how something like that would be handled, why don't you contact someone at the Pinnacle MEC.

While I have not heard any discussion, I do know that the last time this was talked about was several years ago with the Mesaba guys when noises were being made that Pinnacle was going to buy Mesaba (or maybe the other way around). Anyway, the proposed integration, if it were to ever occur, would have been similar to straight hire date. The other method discussed was a percentile rank system.

Why would any Pinnacle pilot, who is talking about wanting to work with Colgan pilots, suggest a staple job?

These two groups need to start talking, fast. Unfortunately, there is no one at Colgan for our reps to talk to.

I can ASSURE you that a staple job WILL NEVER HAPPEN..... there may be a few young and junior PCL pilots who would want it not that is just not a possibility.

 

[redflyer65]

We won't be able to merge list unless we can get a Federal judge to appove our scope provision as it is written right now. The company will do EVERYTHING in it's power to keep that from happening. Things should get interesting shortly. The integration will be close to date of hire I believe. ALPA has done very little if any 'staple' jobs. Now the AA union integration is a little different.

Both pilot groups should want integration so we can all stand together for a better contract. Otherwise there will be whipsaw, and the Colgan pilots QOL will quickly go downhill in a hurry. Just wait and see. Work rules will change with a stroke of the pen.

 

[vtchaz]

First you need to understand your scope provision

We won't be able to merge list unless we can get a Federal judge to appove our scope provision as it is written right now.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this subject and some are still forming them. It is important however that everyone actually understands the business and legal aspects BEFORE they get on their soap box.

The pinnacle or Express 1 contract, as it is written, has no such scope provision protecting current pinnacle pilots in this specific case. As it reads Pinnacle pilots are only guaranteed that flying done by Pinnacle AIRLINES will be done by Pinnacle pilots on their seniority list. There is not one piece of language in there that protects them from the PARENT company, Pinnacle HOLDINGS (it's important to note the difference) from purchasing another company and running it separately as they see fit. This is a mistake and ALPA should have put better langauge in, but they didn't. Not much you can do about that now.

Also in this specific case the rumored expansion is for Q400 Continental flying. This is flying that Colgan has been competing for and bidding on previously. If awarded and the planes are purchased, this is not at the expense of Pinnacle pilots. This is COLGAN pilot flying that we have earned. Make no mistake about that, IF it happens.

No one at Colgan wants anything negative to happen to Pinnacle pilots, or any other pilot group, however don't expect us to choose to join your union or any union just to protect YOU. We will do so if we feel that WE need protection. As of now we have not seen a need. Will that change in the future? Who knows, but that is for us to decide if and when. I personally think now is too early to tell. Our current management is still very much in control of this company. If that starts to change then we MAY have something to talk about.

Go EDUCATE YOURSELF on this industry, it's history, the legal aspects. Don't take anything anyone writes online as fact. I don't expect you to believe me, either. Go find the information for yourself. That's what I did.

And stop kidding yourselves about what life at the regional level is supposed to be like and forget about turning it into anything more than a stepping stone. You'll be a lot happier if you accept that.

As a group, pilots are idiots, and you all know I'm right. The sooner we fix that, the better off we will ALL be at ALL carriers.

Good luck to everyone.

 

[Smarta$$]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this subject and some are still forming them. It is important however that everyone actually understands the business and legal aspects BEFORE they get on their soap box.

The pinnacle or Express 1 contract, as it is written, has no such scope provision protecting current pinnacle pilots in this specific case. As it reads Pinnacle pilots are only guaranteed that flying done by Pinnacle AIRLINES will be done by Pinnacle pilots on their seniority list. There is not one piece of language in there that protects them from the PARENT company, Pinnacle HOLDINGS (it's important to note the difference) from purchasing another company and running it separately as they see fit. This is a mistake and ALPA should have put better langauge in, but they didn't. Not much you can do about that now.

Also in this specific case the rumored expansion is for Q400 Continental flying. This is flying that Colgan has been competing for and bidding on previously. If awarded and the planes are purchased, this is not at the expense of Pinnacle pilots. This is COLGAN pilot flying that we have earned. Make no mistake about that, IF it happens.

No one at Colgan wants anything negative to happen to Pinnacle pilots, or any other pilot group, however don't expect us to choose to join your union or any union just to protect YOU. We will do so if we feel that WE need protection. As of now we have not seen a need. Will that change in the future? Who knows, but that is for us to decide if and when. I personally think now is too early to tell. Our current management is still very much in control of this company. If that starts to change then we MAY have something to talk about.

Go EDUCATE YOURSELF on this industry, it's history, the legal aspects. Don't take anything anyone writes online as fact. I don't expect you to believe me, either. Go find the information for yourself. That's what I did.

And stop kidding yourselves about what life at the regional level is supposed to be like and forget about turning it into anything more than a stepping stone. You'll be a lot happier if you accept that.

As a group, pilots are idiots, and you all know I'm right. The sooner we fix that, the better off we will ALL be at ALL carriers.

Good luck to everyone.

You are a tool. Maybe you should understand our scope before you get on your soapbox. You are not aware of the side letter that was agreed to after the fact. It binds Pinnacle holdings to the pinnacle pilots. So you should get your facts before you spread this BS.

 

[suupah]

Pinnacle alpa has brought excellence to the work group over there. We should strive to get what they have at our jobs. woo hooo alpa now! yay! woo hooo! lanyards for everyone!!!! Magazines!!! Stickers!!! woo hoo

 

[vectorvictor]

Union or no union this job is a stepping stone. The reality here is this: There are thousands of pilots willing to do my job cheaper than me. I'm not anti-union, I'm just pro-reality. There are a lot of union guys getting there flying taken away by other union shops. There are Union ALPA pilots giving their flying away to other union ALPA pilots. A union is more than a flashy lanyard or magazine. A union is a collective bargaining tool built on respect for one another and our profession. We can adopt the paper work to be the collective bargaining tool and hire the lawyers to represent us, but if we have no respect for one another and our profession, than we might as well use the dues to pay our student loans.

 

[suupah]

very true. unless alpa groups work together there will still be whip saw every where.

 

[Beech Balls]

I don't want to have to deal with a union, or even pay dues for some dumb sh!t to speak for me/ represent me and my Colgan homies....

To me, a union is just another method for getting screwed outta my measly money, it opens the door to agreements, and contracts, and more sh!t to sign and go to court for. I hate court....been there many times over.

It therefore opens the door to lawyers, and I hate lawyers even more than any Colganoscopy, no matter how painful and deep it can be.
Lawyers are a necessary evil, a biproduct of this country's f#$&ed legal system. They suck you dry and send you a bill for what you don't have left.....

I just wanna work for my sh!tty pay, get my turb PIC time quietly, and bolt for a Boeing ASAP.

Oh, and feel free to flame on.....I don't care.

 

[funnyman12]

First of all, i am very open to all options since the purchase. I enjoy working at Colgan. Regarding our current work rules....here are some of the things that already occur here. Low pay for the 2nd year FO's. Pinnacle would not want to lower pay further do to the extreme attrition. If Republic is hiring 1000 pilots I highly doubt they would lower our pay. We are junior manned often. On reserve we have a max of 5 min to return a missed call. Many regionals have a 2 hour reserve, ours is one. We have no commuting policy. many bases have 14 hour duty days with only 5 hours of pay. Also no per diem (ours is 1.35, least in the industry). All this aside I understand that we have been in a different world than other regionals. Things could be a lot better but realistically it would not be wise for Pinnacle to make our work worse. We luckily are in a period were qualified pilots are becoming more difficult to find. Reading these pages of posts tells me that PCL pilots have no idea what being a Colgan pilot is like, and Colgan pilots have no idea what it is like at a public company with contract issues. All options need to be explored. Not rushed and not procrastinated.