colgan union-------question

[captboy2001]

for those that want to organize it...is it for changing the qual of life and better pay....what r the reasons....u think we need it....do u want to loose u senority # by merging with 9e?????????it will take 2-3 yrs to see the changes....and a union will not change the reduced rest overnights......

 

[Turbojet23]

I would like to make a few points that should be considered by my fellow colgan peers concerning this "need for a union" issue.

1) Has anything changed for the worst since pinnacle took ownership of us? No, infact things have only changed for the better. Information has been disseminated quicker then ever before, more Saab aircraft are being introduced as well as routes and bases, and a larger airframe (Q400) is in the works. These are only a few examples. Untill something disasterious happens there isn't a reson to lose money out of are paychecks to support a organization that would have no purpose but to profit off a company that we worked our butts off to build.

2) I agree that one of the hottest topics for the argument of a union at this point is second year F/O pay. I'll admit that Colgan wages, although industry competitive the first year, seriously lack. If management at Pinnacle is smart this should be addressed very quickly. This single issue could hold the weight to bring on a union. Combine a second year F/O raise with a smaller across the board pilot pay increase would ease a lot of tension.

3) If the need for a union does become apparent we are going to have to consider an organization different than Pinnacles ALPA. We would need to protect ourselves from both management and the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group if we are to remain an independent airline.

From talking to many Colgan pilots I feel that they do not understand the impact this will have on all of our lives. They more or less want a union so they can ware the ALPA lanyard and be respected by Mesa pilots in the crew-room at IAD. Lets not rush and wait and see what develops.

Remember Pinnacle Airlines Corporation is just that, a Corporation. They have a responsibility to make money just like McDonalds does. We are all employees of this corporation and must look at the big picture.

Check six.

 

[Flyer1015]

If the need for a union does become apparent we are going to have to consider an organization different than Pinnacles ALPA. We would need to protect ourselves from both management and the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group if we are to remain an independent airline.

It isn't "the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group" that are making business decisions. If anyone gets hosed over (with whipsawing and such) the blame can land on PT the Clown and management alone.

 

[Visceral]

I would like to make a few points that should be considered by my fellow colgan peers concerning this "need for a union" issue.

1) Has anything changed for the worst since pinnacle took ownership of us? No, infact things have only changed for the better. Information has been disseminated quicker then ever before, more Saab aircraft are being introduced as well as routes and bases, and a larger airframe (Q400) is in the works. These are only a few examples. Untill something disasterious happens there isn't a reson to lose money out of are paychecks to support a organization that would have no purpose but to profit off a company that we worked our butts off to build.

2) I agree that one of the hottest topics for the argument of a union at this point is second year F/O pay. I'll admit that Colgan wages, although industry competitive the first year, seriously lack. If management at Pinnacle is smart this should be addressed very quickly. This single issue could hold the weight to bring on a union. Combine a second year F/O raise with a smaller across the board pilot pay increase would ease a lot of tension.

3) If the need for a union does become apparent we are going to have to consider an organization different than Pinnacles ALPA. We would need to protect ourselves from both management and the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group if we are to remain an independent airline.

From talking to many Colgan pilots I feel that they do not understand the impact this will have on all of our lives. They more or less want a union so they can ware the ALPA lanyard and be respected by Mesa pilots in the crew-room at IAD. Lets not rush and wait and see what develops.

Remember Pinnacle Airlines Corporation is just that, a Corporation. They have a responsibility to make money just like McDonalds does. We are all employees of this corporation and must look at the big picture.

Check six.

A lanyard and the respect of Mesa pilots? That is silly and I can't imagine anyone buying that. This isn't the Colgan we joined anymore. The sooner you realize that, the better. PCL doesn't have a labor friendly record, so why would that change simply because they purchased us?

 

[PCL_128]

If management at Pinnacle is smart this should be addressed very quickly.

Pinnacle management? Smart? Was that meant to be a joke? See the Phildo clown picture in the avatar above.

3) If the need for a union does become apparent we are going to have to consider an organization different than Pinnacles ALPA. We would need to protect ourselves from both management and the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group if we are to remain an independent airline.

Why do you think you need to be protected from "a few" radicals? Do you think the few control the Association? ALPA is a representative democracy, my friend. A few radicals don't control anything. This Association wants to do what is right for everyone. We are looking out for your pilots, and we want to do the right thing. I certainly won't speak for the rest of the MEC, but I would push for DOH, and that would benefit your pilot group greatly.

 

[30West]

1) Has anything changed for the worst since pinnacle took ownership of us? No, infact things have only changed for the better. Information has been disseminated quicker then ever before, more Saab aircraft are being introduced as well as routes and bases, and a larger airframe (Q400) is in the works. These are only a few examples. Untill something disasterious happens there isn't a reson to lose money out of are paychecks to support a organization that would have no purpose but to profit off a company that we worked our butts off to build.

I don't think it's the "right now" that both groups should be worried about. Having been a CJ pilot for 6 years, I am one of the one's who "worked my butt off" to help build what Colgan is today.
But I know that now that is all irrelevant. Colgan is now under the control of a management that operates under a completely different philosophy.
Right now things are all touchy feely and new. But as they figure out how Colgan works, I guarantee they will ball it up and twist it into something as grotesque as the Pinnacle pilot group is saying things are on their side right now.
Change is coming. The question is, is the current Colgan pilot group going to take a pro-active or re-active stance?

 

[ColganCapt]

The biggest reason we need a union, and it should be ALPA, is because when the lists are merged - probably several years from now - we all need to be able to sit down at the table and get it done right. The current policies we have need to be put in stone and some need to be changed, deleted or otherwise and a few new ones need to be added.
Current QOL is not an issue, 2nd year fo pay is. Lets make a list and get it done.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I would like to make a few points that should be considered by my fellow colgan peers concerning this "need for a union" issue.

1) Has anything changed for the worst since pinnacle took ownership of us? No, infact things have only changed for the better. Information has been disseminated quicker then ever before, more Saab aircraft are being introduced as well as routes and bases, and a larger airframe (Q400) is in the works. These are only a few examples. Untill something disasterious happens there isn't a reson to lose money out of are paychecks to support a organization that would have no purpose but to profit off a company that we worked our butts off to build.

The intent is to be forward thinking.... waiting till things get disaterous (sp) is too late. You can't inquire about insurance when the wx forcast turn bad and expect to get a call back.

Waiting to see if the tsunami comes and when it does as your M.O. for the need of a union is self defeating.. You can't have your cake and eat it too...

2) I agree that one of the hottest topics for the argument of a union at this point is second year F/O pay. I'll admit that Colgan wages, although industry competitive the first year, seriously lack. If management at Pinnacle is smart this should be addressed very quickly. This single issue could hold the weight to bring on a union. Combine a second year F/O raise with a smaller across the board pilot pay increase would ease a lot of tension.

If PCL magmnt is smart? sure they are smart... to thier stockholders. Not to you and me. We have been trying to get good pay for over two years.... They may just give it to you to create the whipsaw.... How'd that be? We've been trying to negotiate in good faith for years and you get a pay raise... if you don't see the bias in that then we are all screwed.. We have to be in this together...we get to carry each other....

3) If the need for a union does become apparent we are going to have to consider an organization different than Pinnacles ALPA. We would need to protect ourselves from both management and the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group if we are to remain an independent airline.

We don't need additional boundries created by other unions. You don't need to protect yourselves from your fellow pilot.... Not sure if you have any names of PCL radicals.? Perhaps your perception of radicals has come from reading this board? I can assure you the PCL pilot leadership is quite moderate and inclusive of Colgan pilots. We are all about inclusion not exclusion.

Remain an independent airline? that was yesterday. Your new world order is here and the PCL pilots are on your side. The same side.

From talking to many Colgan pilots I feel that they do not understand the impact this will have on all of our lives. They more or less want a union so they can ware the ALPA lanyard and be respected by Mesa pilots in the crew-room at IAD. Lets not rush and wait and see what develops.

No, they want a union so they aren't used to screw PCL pilots. They want a union cause they don't want to be screwed themselves. Repsresentation is a fundamental right in this country...if you choose to exercise it...

Remember Pinnacle Airlines Corporation is just that, a Corporation. They have a responsibility to make money just like McDonalds does. We are all employees of this corporation and must look at the big picture.

Agreed. They have a responsibility to make money. Not to you or your quality of life. Recall, if we have something then PCL management doesn't have everything. We are not repsected as pilots. We are viewed as a cost that must be controlled and lowered. Pathetic but true. The only difference between us and a baggage cart is the baggage cart doesn't question decisions and doesn't require healthcare.... If airline management could get a baggage cart to fly a jet they would...

Check six.

No. check 12. Look ahead... the future is now.

 

[Kaman]

"Pilots are marginal costs of business" paraphrasing Stephen Wolff formerly of Flying Tigers, Republic (Southern/North Central), UAL and USAirways. The type of CEO running most airlines are a far cry from the pioneers of the 30's-70's. They see themselves as doing exactly what the Board of Directors appointed them to do. Raise the stock price. Look at what Doug Parker has done for USAirways, and your P.T. at Pinnacle. If they don't do it, someone else will and at the expense of their best assets. People. Pretty damned jacked up, but has become painfully apparent in my 3 years in the airline business.

 

[Mr Wu]

To answer the original question,before this thread fills up with Pinna$$holes, there are really only two reasons for a union at 9L (that's Colgan's identifier, for you that don't know).

1. Block intergration of the seniorioty lists.

2. Block another Pinnacle Airlines Corp. subsidiary from inposing their scope on us.

I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about anything else right now and couldn't care less if these were the only two clauses in any contract we signed.

 

[Flyer1015]

I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about anything else right now

The "As long as I get mine, then f#$k everyone else" syndrome. Let me see if I can find some pills for that...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

there are really only two reasons for a union at 9L.

If those are your reasons for bringing on representation...then...bring it on!!

 

[suupah]

I think that In this industry where there is no real lateral opportunities you need someone protecting you. We can't vote with our feet and walk out because you start at the bottom where ever you would go. For those of us with families that is not a realistic option. Management knows this. Most decisions they make are not personal. They look at the business and the people in it, the way you and i look at a math equation.

if they think they can retain people while lowering wages and work rules they will do just that. The only thing that will keep them from doing it is fear of a lawsuit ie a good contract that holds them to something.

Think of a comparison to health or car insurance. i have had car insurance for the past ten years without a single claim. But i still think it is a good value considering what they can do for me when that day comes.

 

[Smarta$$]

To answer the original question,before this thread fills up with Pinna$$holes, there are really only two reasons for a union at 9L (that's Colgan's identifier, for you that don't know).

1. Block intergration of the seniorioty lists.

2. Block another Pinnacle Airlines Corp. subsidiary from inposing their scope on us.

I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about anything else right now and couldn't care less if these were the only two clauses in any contract we signed.

Pinnacle pilots want one seniority list for all. 9E is about to announce 40-60 new jets for delta, which we can all enjoy together. Why do you think you need protection from us?

 

[Kaman]

Pinnacle pilots want one seniority list for all. 9E is about to announce 40-60 new jets for delta, which we can all enjoy together. Why do you think you need protection from us?

Just a thought, but perhaps you guys might be caught in the middle here. The guys at CMR, ASA and perhaps even SKYW are going to scream bloody murder if you get that codeshare. So, does this mean that PCL ALPA should boycott flying Delta owned airplanes? I kind of doubt thats going to happen, and I think all those 400 hour wonders from Gulfstream are going to put a load in their pants over flying the CRJ-900...
Meanwhile back at the ranch here in Colgan land we go quietly into the night and fly what they put on our previous codeshare(s). It's obvious that your senior managment has little regard for your pilot group and more importantly ALPA. They rely on human nature to drive their ambitions and goals for the company (raising the stock price). Like I said, when they announce this CRJ-900 deal...All will be right with your world (sarcasm), and Colgan's puny Q-400 deal will be a memory. The guys I feel for the most are the ones that have been there for more than a few years, and didn't come from some "puppy-pilot" mill, stoned on Kool-Aid...What a mess.

 

[Lear70]

1) Has anything changed for the worst since pinnacle took ownership of us? No, infact things have only changed for the better.

Oh, so you're one of those "me me me" people.

Information has been disseminated quicker then ever before, more Saab aircraft are being introduced as well as routes and bases, and a larger airframe (Q400) is in the works.

You'll probably grow even more than that in the next few years, especially with no contractual protections and the ability for management to schedule you right up to 16 hour duty days, 8 hour block days, reduced rest, and 30/7 and 100/1 limitations.

Then, when you finally get rid of the abuse and spend another YEAR voting in a union, then ANOTHER 3 YEARS getting a contract, they'll shrink YOU and go find a new small airline to purchase and grow.

But you don't care, you're just here for your 1,000 PIC, right? uke:

These are only a few examples. Untill something disasterious happens there isn't a reson to lose money out of are paychecks to support a organization that would have no purpose but to profit off a company that we worked our butts off to build.

Again. If you WAIT to organize until AFTER bad things have happened, you're screwed because:

A.) The bad precedents set the bar for negotiations. ALWAYS harder to undo something than it is to get it right the first time.

B.) Organizing takes up to a year.

C.) Negotiations for a new contract take 2-5 years, depending on how deep your pockets are and how deep management is in bed with whoever the appointed mediator is.

Waiting would be incredibly stupid.

3) If the need for a union does become apparent we are going to have to consider an organization different than Pinnacles ALPA. We would need to protect ourselves from both management and the few radicals in the Pinnacle pilot group if we are to remain an independent airline.

Whether you remain independent or not isn't your decision to make. It's the PCL BOD's.

From talking to many Colgan pilots I feel that they do not understand the impact this will have on all of our lives. They more or less want a union so they can ware the ALPA lanyard and be respected by Mesa pilots in the crew-room at IAD. Lets not rush and wait and see what develops.

Hmmm... "many" Colgan pilots feel differently than you. Maybe it's YOU who's out of step.

Just a thought.

To answer the original question,before this thread fills up with Pinna$$holes, there are really only two reasons for a union at 9L (that's Colgan's identifier, for you that don't know).

1. Block intergration of the seniorioty lists.

2. Block another Pinnacle Airlines Corp. subsidiary from inposing their scope on us.

I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about anything else right now and couldn't care less if these were the only two clauses in any contract we signed.

If it weren't for one or two of your more level-headed coworkers, I'd start watching the interview lists here a lot more closely for "Colganites".

Definitely don't want to have to share the cockpit with someone like you for a single day, much less a longer trip or a whole month.

 

[n32jk]

Pinnacle pilots want one seniority list for all. 9E is about to announce 40-60 new jets for delta, which we can all enjoy together. Why do you think you need protection from us?

If PCL got that contract, I imagine they would try to find another small non union airline to buy. OR they would form a new company as they have been stating their desire to do for a couple of years. They want non union, first year pay for everyone. With no work rules they can let the pilots pay for the operational mistakes they make. And if the Colgan pilots expect too much for flying the Q400's ,,,,they can just give that flying to the NEWCO and be done with all this longevity pay crap ......DON'T LAUGH...... REALLY,,,,,could happen......when they bid the CO EMB contract a year or so ago...their intent was to staff it with a new airline they were trying to form.....

 

[Lear70]

And now for something COMPLETELY different.

We had some hotties at PCL in the cockpit (even though one of them was a complete b*tch), but here's something to ponder:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=93644

 

[ifly34]

My personal take (for what it's worth):
Unions were created to counteract mistreatment of employees by employers. That is their reason for existence. If this management has not treated us bad, why do we need a union?

If it takes 3 to 6 years to get representation and a contract (from Lear 70's estimate), what is waiting another 6 months really going to hurt?

If we have a union, is it really going to keep the company from screwing us? According to Lear 70, PNCL has the most greivances of any airline. PNCL pilots on this board have done a lot of squaking about how management never goes by the contract anyway.

Has anyone read the Dispatchers board? The PNCL dispatchers have done a lot of talking about their new contract efforts. They don't seem to be happy with their choice to unionize. They also give the impression that they were treated better before they voted the union in.

ALPA will not keep us from integrating lists. I think they would encourage it. If you don't want to integrate, ALPA should be your last choice.

I think we need to wait to see what Pinnacle Corp does. If we get a decent rate on the 400, if second year FO pay gets raised (which was already in the works when the purchase occurred), if 9E gets a decent contract (and before March 31st), if 9E gets more flying and both sides grow, then I think management is living up to their word and a union is not necessary. If we get a poor pay scale for the 400, if second year pay stays as poor as it has, if 9E contract negotiations turn ugly, if 9E starts losing aircraft, if they try to put jets on Colgan certificate, then we will need to do something. And if organizing is what needs to be done, then OK.

Alright, blast away. That's what I get for staying up too late.

PS Lear, thanks for the breath of fresh air with that change of subject. I think we all needed it. We all owe you a shot with the first round of drinks.

 

[suupah]

You never wait for an accident to buy insurance.