Colgan 3407 Update

[LowlyPropCapt]

The possibility exists that the crew could have mistaken the situation for tailplane icing? In this case, then the aft column movement would have been appropriate..remember while the NTSB, and all the rest of the "hindsight committees" including ourselves on this forum have many hours days weeks to speculate and pour over data, the crew had mere seconds to react to a situation..

True.. But with a tailplane stall the stick shaker would not have gone off. We have had a ton of time to think about this, as you said. Since that accident occured there has been alot of discussion about tailplane icing. Prior the 3407, nobody was talking about it... In fact I think generally knowledge on the subject could be characterized as weak.

Does anyone know what sort of training the Colgan pilots recieved regarding tailplane icing? If they just got the NASA video like most other airlines, then I highly doubt this was foremost in the crew's mind.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Well on that dumbass thought, how about one of the highest paid regionals and LEX? That crew dropped the ball pretty bad too!
So your money theory is screwed!

Yeah. Everyone dreams at the prospect of working at Comair. I was talking about the regionals in general. Not just Colgan.

 

[30West]

I'll remind you. The more qualified pilots apply to the higher paying airlines. The one's left over work at the lower paying airlines. The hiring standards at Colgan were practically non-existent at Colgan a few years ago. There are innocent people dead because of these pilots' mistake. I would not call it smearing, but just because the pilots are dead does not mean they didn't make a mistake. You guys can blame it on the training all you want, but if what the NTSB is saying is true, then this was just horrendous airmanship. These pilots should not have been flying this aircraft to begin with. There are experienced pilots out of work with 1000's of hours that would have no problem flying a Q400 if it paid a decent wage. Unfortunately it doesn't so you are left with some less experienced pilots to fill the void. You should not be building your experience as a 121 captain with an inexperienced pilot in the left seat. The system is broken. There have been a few accidents in the last couple of years at the regionals that could have and should have been avoided. We are very fortunate that there have been as few accidents as there have been with the regionals lack of hiring standards. Instead of raising pay, they lower requirements.

Yes, please "remind" me. Where is your data to back up your statement that qualifications equal pay? Unless you can provide statistical analysis that can directly equate pay to skill level then nobody is interested. Are you telling me you know personally, and have flown with, every SINGLE pilot at Colgan to be so arrogant as to be able to make a blanket statement like that?

Hate to burst your bubble but the hiring standards EVERYWHERE were non existent a few years ago.
Are you also telling me that NO "high paid" pilots in the history of aviation have made stupid mistakes? Aviation history, which you are obviously unaware, is FULL of stupid mistakes made by your so called "thousands of hour" pilots. NOBODY is immune.
Jesus H Christ, did you just start flying yesterday??

Smearing is EXACTLY what you're doing, and in incredibly poor taste.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Which cause is that? Because all I've seen is speculation, and enough jumping to conclusions to get it in the Olympics. Or are you talking about the cause that will be determined at a future time?

NTSB released excerpts from their preliminary report... Google for it... bottom line, NTSB said it usually waits one year to release findings but it has found the cause as pilot error (flew the aircraft into an approach to stall and improper recovery). Formal relesase I believe is May 12?? Anyone?

BBB

 

[DrewBlows]

With all this talk of "pilot error" it seems obvious...we should just blame the pilots and move on right?

Of course not. Throughout the history of aviation airplanes have crashed and we have learned from mistakes. If we just blamed every accident on pilot error we would not have TCAS, GPWAS, Dark Cockpit, Warning Horns, CRM, or anything else that helps us do our jobs.

Aviation has not been perfected yet. There are better procedures, training methods, software, and hardware yet to be implimented that will save lives in the future. In my opinion it does a great injustice, to everyone who died in this accident, not to explore the factors that surrounded the event and ask how we could do better.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Yes, please "remind" me. Where is your data to back up your statement that qualifications equal pay? Unless you can provide statistical analysis that can directly equate pay to skill level then nobody is interested. Are you telling me you know personally, and have flown with, every SINGLE pilot at Colgan to be so arrogant as to be able to make a blanket statement like that?

Hate to burst your bubble but the hiring standards EVERYWHERE were non existent a few years ago.
Are you also telling me that NO "high paid" pilots in the history of aviation have made stupid mistakes? Aviation history, which you are obviously unaware, is FULL of stupid mistakes made by your so called "thousands of hour" pilots. NOBODY is immune.
Jesus H Christ, did you just start flying yesterday??

Smearing is EXACTLY what you're doing, and in incredibly poor taste.

Hey hockeypilot, some pretty high paid AA pilots got lost and flew into a mountain in South America. STFU.

 

[Lolikoka]

Income Level and Crashes?

Since someone decided that higher paid pilots are safer, I did a little research on crashes that high paid pilots made. My point is that income level of the pilot and commitment to safety do not correspond. I don't make as much as other pilots, but my wife and kids are relying on me to come home alive. Most of these accidents could have been avoided - sometimes by technology, sometimes by judgment. They all involvoed pilots at U.S. major/legacy carriers making the big bucks for that period of history.

12/20/08 Continental/ Denver/ off runway on t/o
12/8/05 Southwest/ Midway/Snow
11/12/01 AA/ JFK / kicked the tail off the plane
3/5/00 Southwest/ Burbank/too high too fast
6/1/99 AA/ Little Rock/ Landing in thunderstorm
12/20/95 AA/ South America/ CFIT
7/2/94 USAir/CLT/landing in thunderstorm
7/30/92 TWA/JFK/ botched aborted t/o
3/22/92 USAir/ New York/ t/o in ice
2/1/91 USAir/LAX/ 737 lands on Skywest Metro
8/31/88 DAL/DFW/727 t/o without flaps
11/15/87 CAL/DEN/ DC9 t/o in snow
1/1/85 EAL 727 hit mountain in Bolivia
12/18/78 UAL DC8 out of gas in Portland/distracted
5/8/78 National 727 hits the water in P-cola
12/1/74 TWA 727 hits mountain in Virginia (IAD)
9/1/74 EAL DC9 CLT
7/31/73 DAL/BOS/DC9 hits seawall in low approach
12/29/72 EAL/L1011/Everglades - mtc distraction
12/8/72 UAL/MDY/737 Crash after rejected ldg
7/30/71 Pan Am/SFO/overweight t/o
5/3/68 Braniff L188 Electra crash in TS
11/20/67 TWA/CVG/CV880 crash on approach
3/9/67 TWA DC9 hits Baron near Dayton
11/11/65 UAL/SLC/727 crash on approach
2/8/65 EAL/DC7 crashes trying to avoid PAL 707
2/25/64 EAL/MSY/DC8 into Lake Ponchatrain
11/30/62 EAL DC9 crash in New York - pilot error

Pilots are human and make mistakes. We try to learn from it and put procedures in place to stop the error chain. While I would gladly take more money, that won't make me decide to be more safe.

 

[Flywrite]

Since someone decided that higher paid pilots are safer, I did a little research on crashes that high paid pilots made. My point is that income level of the pilot and commitment to safety do not correspond. I don't make as much as other pilots, but my wife and kids are relying on me to come home alive. Most of these accidents could have been avoided - sometimes by technology, sometimes by judgment. They all involvoed pilots at U.S. major/legacy carriers making the big bucks for that period of history.

12/20/08 Continental/ Denver/ off runway on t/o
12/8/05 Southwest/ Midway/Snow
11/12/01 AA/ JFK / kicked the tail off the plane
3/5/00 Southwest/ Burbank/too high too fast
6/1/99 AA/ Little Rock/ Landing in thunderstorm
12/20/95 AA/ South America/ CFIT
7/2/94 USAir/CLT/landing in thunderstorm
7/30/92 TWA/JFK/ botched aborted t/o
3/22/92 USAir/ New York/ t/o in ice
2/1/91 USAir/LAX/ 737 lands on Skywest Metro
8/31/88 DAL/DFW/727 t/o without flaps
11/15/87 CAL/DEN/ DC9 t/o in snow
1/1/85 EAL 727 hit mountain in Bolivia
12/18/78 UAL DC8 out of gas in Portland/distracted
5/8/78 National 727 hits the water in P-cola
12/1/74 TWA 727 hits mountain in Virginia (IAD)
9/1/74 EAL DC9 CLT
7/31/73 DAL/BOS/DC9 hits seawall in low approach
12/29/72 EAL/L1011/Everglades - mtc distraction
12/8/72 UAL/MDY/737 Crash after rejected ldg
7/30/71 Pan Am/SFO/overweight t/o
5/3/68 Braniff L188 Electra crash in TS
11/20/67 TWA/CVG/CV880 crash on approach
3/9/67 TWA DC9 hits Baron near Dayton
11/11/65 UAL/SLC/727 crash on approach
2/8/65 EAL/DC7 crashes trying to avoid PAL 707
2/25/64 EAL/MSY/DC8 into Lake Ponchatrain
11/30/62 EAL DC9 crash in New York - pilot error

Pilots are human and make mistakes. We try to learn from it and put procedures in place to stop the error chain. While I would gladly take more money, that won't make me decide to be more safe.

While I do agree that pilot pay has little to do with accidents and errors, not all of those listed were caused by pilot error. I'm not going to look up the whole list, but If you read the report on the USAir/Skywest runway collision in LAX in 91 that was controller error and ATC shortcomings, with no blame on either crew. Tests showed that the Metro would have been completely invisible to the USAir crew on final.

 

[OurMoney1]

6 P121 Training Programs and never been instructed to lower the nose. In fact all taught level pitch control with max power, the idea being let the engines pull you out of the upset. I even remember in the late 1990's the FAA went through a window where altitude loss during the stalls was an UNSAT, but they moved away from that in the last couple of years. I have seen guys lose 400 to 600 feet in the sims and still progress through manuevers.

I wonder if the thinking will once again change since life has been lost.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Our industry has become much safer due to the crashes listed above. CRM, GPWS, most aircraft spoilers go down when thrust levers are advanced, etc. are all results of accidents. In today's current environment, most pilot-error accidents are at the regional level. I have flown at both the regionals and majors. I can tell you that the attitude towards safety is much greater at the majors.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Since someone decided that higher paid pilots are safer, I did a little research on crashes that high paid pilots made. My point is that income level of the pilot and commitment to safety do not correspond. I don't make as much as other pilots, but my wife and kids are relying on me to come home alive. Most of these accidents could have been avoided - sometimes by technology, sometimes by judgment. They all involvoed pilots at U.S. major/legacy carriers making the big bucks for that period of history.

12/20/08 Continental/ Denver/ off runway on t/o
12/8/05 Southwest/ Midway/Snow
11/12/01 AA/ JFK / kicked the tail off the plane
3/5/00 Southwest/ Burbank/too high too fast
6/1/99 AA/ Little Rock/ Landing in thunderstorm
12/20/95 AA/ South America/ CFIT
7/2/94 USAir/CLT/landing in thunderstorm
7/30/92 TWA/JFK/ botched aborted t/o
3/22/92 USAir/ New York/ t/o in ice
2/1/91 USAir/LAX/ 737 lands on Skywest Metro
8/31/88 DAL/DFW/727 t/o without flaps
11/15/87 CAL/DEN/ DC9 t/o in snow
1/1/85 EAL 727 hit mountain in Bolivia
12/18/78 UAL DC8 out of gas in Portland/distracted
5/8/78 National 727 hits the water in P-cola
12/1/74 TWA 727 hits mountain in Virginia (IAD)
9/1/74 EAL DC9 CLT
7/31/73 DAL/BOS/DC9 hits seawall in low approach
12/29/72 EAL/L1011/Everglades - mtc distraction
12/8/72 UAL/MDY/737 Crash after rejected ldg
7/30/71 Pan Am/SFO/overweight t/o
5/3/68 Braniff L188 Electra crash in TS
11/20/67 TWA/CVG/CV880 crash on approach
3/9/67 TWA DC9 hits Baron near Dayton
11/11/65 UAL/SLC/727 crash on approach
2/8/65 EAL/DC7 crashes trying to avoid PAL 707
2/25/64 EAL/MSY/DC8 into Lake Ponchatrain
11/30/62 EAL DC9 crash in New York - pilot error

Pilots are human and make mistakes. We try to learn from it and put procedures in place to stop the error chain. While I would gladly take more money, that won't make me decide to be more safe.

TWA L-1011 in 1992 was not a "botched aborted t/o."

The best evidence is that the aft load bearing wall for the aft wing spar cracked after t/o, thus leading the crew to believe that the aircraft was in imminent danger of catastropic failure. In the ensuing evacuation, no lives were lost.

The TWA 727 that hit Mt. Weather in 1974 was a government failure to properly establish ATC terminology. The failure specifically was failure to homogenize of the term "cleared for the approach." The USAF and USN had two different criterion for controller use of "cleared for the approach."

Thus, the phraseology "Maintain xxxx feet, until established on an published portion of the approach, cleared (instrument approach) to RWY zz" was codified.

 

[Lolikoka]

While I do agree that pilot pay has little to do with accidents and errors, not all of those listed were caused by pilot error. I'm not going to look up the whole list, but If you read the report on the USAir/Skywest runway collision in LAX in 91 that was controller error and ATC shortcomings, with no blame on either crew. Tests showed that the Metro would have been completely invisible to the USAir crew on final.

Granted. I took out the obviously unavoidable accidents (engine falling off the AA DC-10 at ORD, the DAL L1011 in windshear at DFW; the DAL DC9 in wake turbulence at GSW; UAL DC-10 with triple hydaulic failure, etc). There are some - maybe lots on this list - that could have been avoided with better technology, etc. But most (not all) were attributed in large measure to pilot error. I guess this list is basically my visceral reaction to hockeypuck's absurd assertion that pilots at major/legacy carriers don't do stupid things because they are paid more. We ALL have done stupid things, regardless of where we work.

Fly safe.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Our industry has become much safer due to the crashes listed above. CRM, GPWS, most aircraft spoilers go down when thrust levers are advanced, etc. are all results of accidents. In today's current environment, most pilot-error accidents are at the regional level. I have flown at both the regionals and majors. I can tell you that the attitude towards safety is much greater at the majors.

I've never been employed at a major, but I'm pretty familiar with one's Major operation and pretty knowledgable with the Safety Dept of another.

I don't know if "attitude" is the word for it. The Majors DO benefit from a much deeper experience pool and variety of previous training than does any regional.

Also, there ARE some really poorly run regional airlines that are pushing safety envelopes. Additionally, if you look at the fractional safety record, you'd believe that the training was absolutely outstanding, when I believe that truly isn't the case. However, no one has died sitting in the back of a large fractionally owned jet provider (NJ, FLOPS, Flex, CS.)

So, I don't think the any quick analysis (whose paid more/regional vs. major/jet vs. tp) will give us the answer for which we'e looking.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

NTSB released excerpts from their preliminary report... Google for it... bottom line, NTSB said it usually waits one year to release findings but it has found the cause as pilot error (flew the aircraft into an approach to stall and improper recovery). Formal relesase I believe is May 12?? Anyone?

BBB

Pilot is faulted in fatal N.Y. air crashBy Alan Levin, USA TODAY


WASHINGTON — A pilot on the flight that killed 50 people outside Buffalo last month apparently triggered the crash by yanking the aircraft into a sudden steep climb that caused it to lose control, federal accident investigators said Wednesday.
Continental Connection Flight 3407 slammed into a house Feb. 12 in Clarence Center, N.Y., killing all 49 people aboard and a man in a house that was engulfed in flames. The flight, operated by regional carrier Colgan Air, was the first fatal U.S. commercial airline crash in 2½ years.
In the most detailed account to date of the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board suggested the pilot's actions, not weather conditions, prompted the plane to go out of control. The plane was flying in freezing rain and snow, but the NTSB found that ice had a "minimal impact" on how the plane performed.
The report raises broad questions about how the two pilots were trained and hints that they may not have adhered to rules governing cockpit conduct.
"The tragedy of Flight 3407 is the deadliest transportation accident in the United States in more than seven years," acting NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker said. "The circumstances of the crash have raised several issues that go well beyond the widely discussed matter of airframe icing."
A spokesman for Colgan's corporate parent, Pinnacle Airlines, urged that people not "jump to conclusions." The airline's training program met or exceeded federal aviation regulations, spokesman Joe Williams said.
As the plane prepared to land, a warning device known as a "stick shaker" activated, the NTSB said. The stick shaker alerts pilots that they are flying too slowly by vibrating the control column. If a plane gets too slow, it can experience an aerodynamic "stall," in which air flowing over the wings can no longer keep the plane aloft.
Pilots are trained to respond to the stick shaker by immediately lowering a plane's nose and increasing power, but the pilots on the Colgan Air flight pulled the nose up, the NTSB said. Such steep climbs make a plane's wing more likely to stall.
Within two seconds of the stick shaker, the airflow over the wing was disrupted and the plane rolled to one side, the NTSB said.
The NTSB is also investigating whether the crew discussed non-work topics, which is prohibited below 10,000 feet.
It would be unfair to immediately blame the pilots' actions for the crash, said Michael Barr, who teaches aviation safety at the University of Southern California. "There should be no rush to judgment until we ask why, why, why and get at the root cause of the accident," Barr said.

 

[WSurf]

Yeah. Everyone dreams at the prospect of working at Comair. I was talking about the regionals in general. Not just Colgan.

Dude, you can't be that dumb are you? Of course the regionals in general pay lower. This where we all get our start to build time and then become Captains. Then hopefully we build enough time in the left seat along with confidence and become pilots at what used to be a dream job 'the majors'.

I can't figure your train of thought. Do you think the regional pilots should make Major's wages?????

 

[WSurf]

I have flown at both the regionals and majors. I can tell you that the attitude towards safety is much greater at the majors.

Again your train of thought is wierd.

Attitude towards Safety is defined by that indivdual.
Believe me there are many unsafe pilots at the majors.

Sometimes at the regional level most of the pilots are young and eager. Sometimes they can feel bullet proof and maybe try things that could get them in trouble. However over time, and with experience many lose that bullet proof ego.
I remember as a young pilot I did things in the plane that I wouldn't even try now. And that comes with age and experience. Not wether your at a major or not.

 

[cuban8]

Tailplane Icing with Stall

I see some references to tailplane icing and stall here, but seriously.... how many people, either here on this forum, or anywhere, have ever actually experienced a tailplane stall (and I am referring to the era after aircraft such as the J31, Saab 340..etc were modified to reduce the chance of such an event)...my guess is NONE!

 

[WSurf]

I see some references to tailplane icing and stall here, but seriously.... how many people, either here on this forum, or anywhere, have ever actually experienced a tailplane stall (and I am referring to the era after aircraft such as the J31, Saab 340..etc were modified to reduce the chance of such an event)...my guess is NONE!

It can happen, and it has at my airline. The story is also really horrific. Lucky for the crew this happened at an altitude where they could recover.

So yes, tailplane stalls can occur.

 

[pair_of_pratts]

For years the FAA has had a "one size fits all" stall recovery training program. Push the thrust levers up and pull back on the yoke to minimize altitude loss. About 5 years ago the FAA put together and industry working group to rewrite FAR 121 sub parts N and O. These are your current training regulations. Shortly after Pinnacle 3701 the group began looking at what that crew did when they got stick shaker. The set full thrust and tried to maintain altitude. It didn't work and they realized that maybe they should get away from the "one size fits all" stall recovery training and began working on new regulations. On January 12, 2009 the FAA introduced a notice of proposed rule making with the new regulations. Take a look at the requirements starting on page 1360 http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E8-29584.pdf

Here is a link to Transport Canada's recommended Training and Checking Practices for Stall Recovery. http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0247.htm

 

[Microclimates]

Here is a link to Transport Canada's recommended Training and Checking Practices for Stall Recovery. http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0247.htm

That's a good read... A private pilot knows what a stall is, yet our 121 training standards throw that knowledge out the window. But then again, isn't it typical of the airlines that you save a penny and lose a dollar (sort of like saying don't lose any altitude in a stall-- except when you really stall in which case you'll lose big time doing what you were told to do!)