Colgan 3407 Findings

[chignutsak]

...My take on the CVR comments and the comments from their peers indicated more maturity and self-awareness than they've been credited with...

I read the CVR transcript over and over. Regarding sterile cockpit conversation, nothing on it could be construed to be anything more than what occurs on the average airline flight deck. I have seen better sterile discipline and I have seen worse, at my airline and while jumping on others. THAT part of it, vis-a-vis this investigation, has been overplayed, IMO. Anyone here who calls them out for this is a hypocrite. We have all violated it.

 

[CFI2766]

I have no personal knowledge of CA Renslow or FO Shaw's abilities; I agree some of those deposed might have been ill-disposed to speak poorly of the recently deceased. But if Renslow flew with people who thought he was such a weak stick, did anyone do anything? Talk to Flight Standards, the CP, or Pro Stans? Honestly, I've read the depositions of several other pilot-error crashes (a few of the USAir incidents in the late 80s and early 90s, e.g.); in those cases the tone much more clearly indicated skepticism of the crew's abilities.

I didn't take pointing out the errors as dancing on their graves, but there have been plenty of sardonic comments from folks who seem to believe the mistakes are beneath them. Those guys (and gals?) seem most likely to repeat the same mistakes.

Ultimately, the two of them made a basic mistake, failed to rectify it, and died for it. They were the wrong people in that cockpit at that time. My take on the CVR comments and the comments from their peers indicated more maturity and self-awareness than they've been credited with. In our rush to say "they f-d up" (and make no mistake, they did), we tend to ignore what we can learn about ourselves as aviators. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Excellent summary.

 

[rtmcfi]

You're correct, I don't like ALPA. But do to TOS, you don't get how much I really don't like ALPA.

Your inability to let go of ALPA for even a little while is disturbing. You appear have symptoms of Autism, or Touretts, or some other disorder. You really are doing yourself and your viewpoints a disservice. It comes across as weird and childish. How many of your last 50 posts regard ALPA directly, or allude to ALPA? Relax or you may need ALPA aeromedical to get your medical back. Seriously.....

 

[say again]

Fatigue was determined to be factor. It has a direct bearing on the outcome if they would have had better quality rest.

While fatigue may have been a factor, I don't believe its an excuse for not knowing how to recover from a stall. The only way they should have not noticed the decreasing speed is if they were sleeping. It doesn't take much to notice a decreasing speed and to add a little power. The effed up royally and never should have been in the cockpit. They were alert enough to be talking, laughing, etc. A little situational awareness would've prevented this.

 

[WayBack]

It comes across as weird and childish. How many of your last 50 posts regard ALPA directly, or allude to ALPA?

You think that's weird and childish? Weird and childish would be me sitting in the dark corner of the crew room, wearing nothing but a really tight ALPA shirt, black socks and a cowboy hat...while I try to get guys to join ALPA.

I was actually thinking about that the other day. I bet every single post of mine contains anti-ALPA rhetoric. Even if the thread is about politics, I'll find a way to include ALPA.
But I am a man on a mission. And it seems to be working, because PFT128 is telling others to block me and some other guys.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[WayBack]

While fatigue may have been a factor, I don't believe its an excuse for not knowing how to recover from a stall. The only way they should have not noticed the decreasing speed is if they were sleeping.

You must be that one guy everyone is talking about. You're so senior that you fly nothing but 9am-5am trips.
But try to remember back to the days of how tired you were at the some of your long days. You think if you were completely exhausted at the end of the long day, it couldn't happen to you?
Now I'm not excusing them from what happened, but it was bound to happen to someone.
If they were really fatigued they should have called in fatigued. But neither of them had a crash pad in base, and bed and hot shower probably sounded great. Hey, what the hell, it's only one short leg.
If this is what their thoughts we're, it's not the first time and they weren't the only crew with the same mindset that night. It happens everyday and every night.

 

[rtmcfi]

You think that's weird and childish? Weird and childish would be me sitting in the dark corner of the crew room, wearing nothing but a really tight ALPA shirt, black socks and a cowboy hat...while I try to get guys to join ALPA.

Now that is funny, I don't care where you stand on ALPA.

That said, your rhetoric may well be geting others to ignore you.

 

[airplane wizard]

Not only did they not notice the decreasing airspeed, they overrode the safety device designed to prevent a stall. The excuse being..."we're not paid enough"

 

[WayBack]

That said, your rhetoric may well be geting others to ignore you.

You'd think so right? But I have been on here for a couple years, fishing with worst fake bait possible. And the biggest fish keep biting. This pond is loaded!

 

[say again]

You must be that one guy everyone is talking about. You're so senior that you fly nothing but 9am-5am trips.
But try to remember back to the days of how tired you were at the some of your long days. You think if you were completely exhausted at the end of the long day, it couldn't happen to you?
Now I'm not excusing them from what happened, but it was bound to happen to someone.
If they were really fatigued they should have called in fatigued. But neither of them had a crash pad in base, and bed and hot shower probably sounded great. Hey, what the hell, it's only one short leg.
If this is what their thoughts we're, it's not the first time and they weren't the only crew with the same mindset that night. It happens everyday and every night.

No longer an airline guy, and wasn't very senior when I was. I know about fatigue issues, and I never said it couldn't happen to me. I believe you missed my point.