co-capt. logging time

[LJPilot]

I have two seperate PIC columns. One is labeled PIC, and the other is labeled Aircraft Commander Jet. That's the column the majors want to see. If Im flying, but Im not signing for the aircraft, I just log it as PIC time. I dont know how right it is, but I'll fully stand behind it when questioned in an interview.

 

[svcta]

i have 5 columns for PIC in my logbook. With and without passengers, PIC on tuesdays, PIC Fri-Sun, PIC before lunch on Mondays or Wednesdays. The rest is all just regular PIC if I'm flying or SIC if I'm not. Which means that I actually have 6 PIC categories, but this isn't a leap year so it's all technically "type 4" PIC this year which means that it all goes in the same column regardless.

 

[LJPilot]

OK, I get your piont, but I dont think having a commander column is a bad thing. Ive heard that in Europe they distinguish between the two and log it that way.

 

[stupidpilot]

Your legs are *definitely* loggable as PIC according to the FAA logging regs, as defined by part 61. However, except when you are signing for the aircraft, it definitely can *not* be represented as PIC as defined by Part 1, which is what most employers who require a minimum of turbine PIC specify- namely the person signing for the aircraft (even though the SIC is still held responsible in a 2-person operation). Therefore, just be careful to never misrepresent SIC legs as part 1 PIC time... but by all means log it as part 61 PIC, while highlighting on any application (even if only via a footnote) that it is in accordance with Part 61, not Part 1.

Bingo, most emplyers refer to part 1 when referring to PIC. Part 61 yes you can. But if you are logging it for future reference to get a job do what he said.

 

[BoilerUP]

Part 91 operations are different than 121/135...and even within 121 there are different philosophies toward PIC.

If I were Part 91 and typed in the aircraft I'd log all my legs PIC...and if there is some sort of grey area beyond that, simply have the pilot whose leg it is name on the flight plan.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

If you are typed, current, and assuming you are held resposible for any "problems" with the Fed's; then log P.I.C.
Manipulating or not, when you get that letter, both pilots now days are held resposible for the flight, so you might as well log the time you are entitled to. Believe me, they will come after both of you.

Well said Southern!

 

[onthebeach]

All I can do is laugh.

This "logging-of-PIC-flight-time" question comes up all the time. Continuously. Perpetually. I don't expect it'll ever go away. Well, let me show you with something you have obviously never read; it's an excerpt from the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Part 61, Section 51, Paragraph (e):

"Logging pilot-in-command flight time.(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating."

This information, along with much other information, is contained in several sections of the Code of Federal Regulations. Folks who obtain Pilot Certificates in the U.S. are required to be familiar with these sections. Also, Pilots operating in the U.S. are supposed to abide by these Federal Regulations, although in practice, very few do. Most just do what they think is logical, or what someone else told them to do, or whatever they feel will best serve their interests; and this is especially the case when it comes to the subject of logging PIC time.

Have a nice career, and fly safely. All the best....

 

[sleepy]

Who is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft? There can only be one final authority, and that person is the PIC regardless of whether you have a type rating, what seat you are flying from, or what the FAA will do to you if you have an accident while flying the leg.

 

[onthebeach]

wake up, Sleepy

The man asked if he could log PIC time. The answer is in 61.51(e). Your post did nothing but muddy up water that has already been muddied. A lot of you guys spend your lives navigating in muddy waters. You should pay attention and read the regs instead.

 

[sleepy]

The man asked if he could log PIC time. The answer is in 61.51(e). Your post did nothing but muddy up water that has already been muddied. A lot of you guys spend your lives navigating in muddy waters. You should pay attention and read the regs instead.

I don't think the water is muddy at all. The Chief Pilot or his representative designates a PIC for each trip. Unless you are relieved, that person is the PIC, makes all decisions regarding the conduct of the flight, is in contact with operations for changes, deals with the passengers, etc..... That person is responsible for the flight, his name is listed on all flight plans as the PIC of the flight and he is responsible for everything that happens or does not happen on that flight. Is that clear? There can only be one PIC.

 

[onthebeach]

I said wake up, Sleepy

Sleepy, what part of "the-regulations-allow-you-to-log-PIC-time-under-certain-conditions-even-when-you-are-not-the-Captain" is it that you don't understand?

The man asked if he could log PIC time when flying a jet in which he was typed and current. The correct answer is yes. If your answer is no, you need to hit the books. Try waking up first.

 

[stupidpilot]

Sleepy, what part of "the-regulations-allow-you-to-log-PIC-time-under-certain-conditions-even-when-you-are-not-the-Captain" is it that you don't understand?

The man asked if he could log PIC time when flying a jet in which he was typed and current. The correct answer is yes. If your answer is no, you need to hit the books. Try waking up first.

Read the previous posts. I have been to a few job fairs and in every one the answer was that most every one of the BIG employers only counts PIC time under Part 1. NOT Part 61. So why he may be able to legally log it, he's obviously logging it toward getting time for a better job. So Part 1 rules would apply. If there's any doubt the best thing is to separate it out.(stupid sounding rhyming unintentional.)

 

[sleepy]

Thanks Stupidpilot. Let's say that you are in the interview for your dream job, they look at your application and see that you logged 3000 hours as PIC of a Falcon 900. They look at your logbook and see that you have a column that is titled "PIC in an aircraft I was typed in, but I was not the designated PIC on the trip". They ask if you counted this time toward the 3000 hours PIC in a Falcon 900 that are the required minimum for the job. You say yes, and they say thank you for coming in, we will be in touch............

Why take the chance, error on the side of caution.

 

[svcta]

maybe, then, it wasn't your dream job after all.

 

[A Squared]

And as has also been pointed out in previous threads, when push comes to shove, anyone can log anything they want in their logbook (I have known pilots who choose to log all time on an IFR flight plan as IMC- whatever) and it's not "illegal" per se. I can go out in a C172 (or for that matter MS Flight Sim) and log it in my Jepp logbook as PIC Concorde or Space Shuttle. It's only a *potential* legal and/or ethical issue if one is representing it as time for the purposes of FAA requirements, and/or to an interviewer or application sheet,

Nope, not true at all. You can in fact get a falsification enforcement for putting bogus time in your logbook, even though you never used it for a certificate, rating or privelige.

The FAA has made it very clear that everything you put in your logbook must be legit. Period. I can show you the NTSB decisions on pilots who though otherwise. They lost thier certificates.

The guy you mentinoed logging bogus instrumet time could in fact lose his certificates for that fact alone, even without putting the time on an 8710.

 

[SENECAII]

What if both pilots are typed and one ( or both) is a MEI (instructor) ?

 

[skyaddict]

Thanks for the clarification, and in that case, rightly so (risking enforcement action, if misrepresenting). I guess that was what I meant to say- if they represent the MS flight sim time (I know this is an extreme and silly example but just trying to push it to the extreme case for the sake of argument) as real flight time, it is misrepresentation; if they are tools who want a column with MS flight sim time, they aren't. And you can create whatever columns you want and log it, so long as you don't misrepresent.

As for the airlines, they have their own narrower definitions of PIC than the FAA's so one should make the distinction very clear both on an app and in the logbook.

As for the broader issue of people effectively Parker timing their own definitions of actual instrument or whatever, that isn't really enforcable even though it is wrong. I recall some airlines (Comair back when I attended a job fair in 2001 during their strike) had rather silly requirements like "10% of total time" which were completely ludicrous in almost any part of the country even for someone who launches in the soup daily, not just FL and AZ. (I notice in turbine equipment now, even in IFR weather, 10% IFR is pushing it on most flights, and that doesn;'t include the many 0% on VFR days, which are most days). So they must have been getting many of their apps Parker timed I'd imagine. Anyway, can leave that for another thread.

 

[A Squared]

I guess that was what I meant to say- if they represent the MS flight sim time (I know this is an extreme and silly example but just trying to push it to the extreme case for the sake of argument) as real flight time, it is misrepresentation; if they are tools who want a column with MS flight sim time, they aren't. And you can create whatever columns you want and log it, so long as you don't misrepresent.

Sure I'd agree with that. Put what you want, as long as it's clear what it is. I have read posters claim that you can put anything in you logbook, however you want, including misrepresenting time or fabricating it, and you're safe as long as you don't put that time on an 8710. That's not true. If it's in your logbook, it had better be accurate. Like you say, it's OK to log MS flight sim time, as long as it's clearly logged as MS flight sim time.