CMR management snubs merger

[Dieterly]

All I am asking for is a vote

Tell me you are not dumb, thinking you wouldn't get to vote? How long have you been in the union, a week?

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Waco, have you considered a simple proportional adjustment of the seniority list? Take your current seniority number and then divide it by the total number of Comair pilots. Then multiply that by the sum of ASA and Comair pilots. The result is that you would be at exactly the same relaitve place on a combined list that you were prior. Add in a fence lasting several years in duration and that would protect the junior pilots in base at both companies.

I don't think that taking concessions for crew meals is a worthy trade off. There hasn't been a crew meal created that would offset lousy schedules, lower pay, and bad work rules. JMHO

 

[P38JLightning]

DOH, period.

There is ONLY one way to merge ASA and Comair and that's date of hire. There is no way the majority of Comair pilots (or a single ASA pilot) is going to agree to some fantasy seniority ratio.

What if there is a merger, but it takes a year or two to happen. Now ASA has hired hundreds more than Comair. Suddenly those FEW short sighted pilots worried about their relative % seniroty will have screwed themselves in the opposite direction.

Our respective MEC's sat down years ago and settled on DOH. Even when Comair had many more jet positions. Regardless of who went on strike and who grew as a result. Through the years its been DOH, period. There is no way in hell our brothers at ASA with years of seniority are going to be stapled to the bottom of Comair new hires. You can get over that fantasy right here and now.

Comair and ASA are allies, equals and brothers through thick and thin. Any potential merger WILL reflect it. And yes, of course, there will be fences and freezes and appropriate growth protections (eliminate fututre outsourcing for starters) so even if someone slipped to a lower relative total group percentage of seniority no pilot would have any fewer pilots junior to him/her, and would get twice as many junior to them in the future.

But then again you probably already heard this from your status rep. Its their job to listen to you and weigh your voice in comparison to the voices of all others. Its not their job to agree with you, especialy when you're wrong.

DOH or whipsaw, take your pick. If you chose whipsaw you better pray ASA doesn't sign a contract with an ammendable date several years beyond ours, or you'll lose a whole lot more "relative seniority" than you will in a fair and equitable merger.

Peace.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Yikes, such absolutes, not much room for negotiating with that attitude. Please note that I appended a fence agreement to smooth the way. A three year base freeze could protect junior pilots, for example. Just trying to keep it simple.

Our futures are inexctricably intertwined. There is no crystal ball to show all the what ifs if we do or do not merge. The DCI "bid" system as assured that.

DOH or nothing? C'mon, use a little imagination.

 

[bvt1151]

Re: DOH, period.

You're missing the point completely, P38. Fences and freezes are no good if you're furloughed. 10% over capacity at Comair results in 180 furloughed Comair pilots. 10% over capacity at a merged list results in 350 COMAIR pilots on the street, no ASA pilots. You can cite "long term" all you want, but what we're concerned about is getting to the long term without having a pink slip in hand. Meanwhile Senior pilots will immediately gain seniority.
Isn't this a case of Comair making the Senior more senior, and the Junior more junior? Where's our Robin Hood!?!?!?

I'd love to hear Surplus' take on this.

 

[sleepy]

For the Publisher, let me say that my first post in this thread was complete sarcasim. I don't for a minute believe that ASA or Comair management has the authority to do anything with our merger proposal. Now that they have admited that, we can all see who really call the shots at ASA and Comair.

I don't know exactly where I would fall in the DOH merger of ASA and Comair pilots, but I believe that most of us would only move up or down maybe 50 positions on the combined list. There would be fences to protect seats and bases. As for the bottom pilots at Comair, yes you would be at the bottom of the combined list until hiring started. ASA will hire 150 this year, so they would be behind your pilots. You would get a vote if this ever happened (unless you are an apprentice), and you would likely be outvoted by the majority of the ASA and Comair pilots (welcome to the Union!).

I doubt that you would ever be in danger of being furloughed from a combined ASA/CMR. We would likely get all future growth at DCI as part of the deal. Any new DCI aircraft would go to ASA/CMR with no more RFP's to bottom feeding airlines. Your industry leading contract would be protected for as long as DAL remains in business.

 

[Caveman]

Wacopilot,

If and when the MEC ever gets an offer they think we might accept you will get the opportunity to vote on it. They have said repeatedly that they would never ratify any changes to our contract without a full vote by the pilots.

Let's assume that all 770 of the pilots you suggested would vote against a DOH merger, you still are in the minority by almost 2:1. I'm a very junior Captain and I usually fly with very junior FO's. So far, not one of them has voiced sentiments similar to yours. My SWAG is that there are maybe, MAYBE, a couple of dozen junior FO's fretting a DOH merger. The ones I talk to are all looking past the immediate future to the long term protection afforded by real brand scope.

DOH mergers are few and far between as it is. In most merger scenarios one group is in a significantly better position to demand some type of ratio. CMR and ASA aren't in that position. We are about as equal as any two pilot groups could be. We are the same size, we fly the same equipment, we fly to the same airports, we have the same ownership, our compensation is very similar, etc, etc. The only real difference is that we have hired 200 more pilots than they have recently. With a DOH merger you would still be senior to everybody that was hired after you. How that is unfair is beyond me. It certainly is more fair than if you were the last ASA pilot hired a year ago being placed junior to some CMR pilot hired a month ago.

I'll tell you what is not going to happen. We will never give up pay or anything else just to get more airplanes. That, my friend, is simply not even on the horizen. If you are looking for that to create enough growth for you to upgrade you might as well wake up now. That dream is never going to happen. The best opportunity for growth is to get a merger and scope out the non WO carriers.

Let me be very frank with you and this is not meant as a personal insult. I have some serious concerns about the loyalty of any pilot shortsighted and selfish enough to not consider a DOH merger with ASA a fair proposal even if it meant a minor setback for them personally. Minor being the key word. If they aren't willing to accept some minor compromise to gain what is clearly better long term potential how would they fare during a prolonged strike, 89 days for instance. I noticed that the numbers you cited coincindentally breakdown just about where the pre and post strike seniority begins. As one of those that paid a fairly steep price for the contract we have I ask that you reconsider your position and think on a bit larger scale. This isn't about you or I individually. It's about what is best in the long term for all of us.

When our strike was settled I was one of 86 that weren't immediately invited back to work. We were furloughed despite initial assurances to the contrary. I was infuriated. I felt like I got screwed royally. I vented on this board and the ALPA board. I personally voiced my displeasure to our MEC and anybody else that would listen. I was wrong. I let my own selfish immediate needs take precedence over the greater good and that included my own greater good. I just couldn't see it at the time. What really happened was that a reasonable compromise took place that gave me long term employment security in exchange for a relatively short term furlough. Further more, the pilot group expended negotiating capital to secure my future. They had to give up stuff to get the 86 pilots back to work. Again, I was too pigheaded and selfmotivated to recognize it then. Along comes 9/11 and over the next year or so the bottom falls out of the industry. Suddenly my job security is looking pretty darn good and I'm feeling very grateful that my reps and fellow pilots made decisions that I initially didn't agree with.

I don't know about other pilot groups but I do know a little bit about this one. The senior pilots and the leadership will not negotiate or vote for anything that isn't in the best interests of all of us. That may mean that some of us MAY incur what we perceive as an injustice. My experience is to the contrary. What they did was in my best interests. I just didn't know it at the time.

Do not follow blindly. Ask tough questions. Vote your conscience. All I ask is that you try to look a bit further down the road and think on a more collective scale.

 

[bvt1151]

Caveman,
your setbacks have come at the hand of the company, which the union eventually protected you against. This is a situation where the union is the cause of our loss of job protection. Who is going to protect us from our own union?

 

[Publishers]

My take

The point of this is simple. You advanced a position on Comair management that is outside of their scope of ability to negotiate. Whether they are wholly owned or not is irrevelent.

It is the same as walking into Delta and saying we want to merge our list with Northwest. Staying on that same track, they Delta decides to spin off ASA to someone else. How can they do that when you have some connection like this to Comair.

Even worse, from this thread I would say that there is no agreement within the groups to do this nor have the ways of integration been agreed to.

All in all, this is not productive negotiation, rather a group of pilots pursuing their agenda's in a manner not productive to anything.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Re: My take

The point of this is simple. You advanced a position on Comair management that is outside of their scope of ability to negotiate. Whether they are wholly owned or not is irrevelent.

It is the same as walking into Delta and saying we want to merge our list with Northwest. Staying on that same track, they Delta decides to spin off ASA to someone else. How can they do that when you have some connection like this to Comair.

Even worse, from this thread I would say that there is no agreement within the groups to do this nor have the ways of integration been agreed to.

All in all, this is not productive negotiation, rather a group of pilots pursuing their agenda's in a manner not productive to anything.

You very obviously do not know what you are talking about. I'll leave it at that.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

C'mon Publishers, you know better than that. There is a reality here that you do not seem to want to acknowledge. When you say our counter-offer to management is "outside of their scope of ability to negotiate," then you are buying into the misconception that ASA/CMR is not beholden to DL management. Do you seriously believe that?

Sure enough you then go on to make a ridiculous comparison about demanding a merge with Northwest. They do not own us but Delta most surely does, I have the stock purchase records to prove it!

Oh and by the way, ALPA has developed a rather nifty Merger and Fragmentation Policy that can deal with all those deal breaking what ifs you seem all worked up about. It worked quite nicely when Pan Am sold off their Pacific routes to United in the eighties but not so well when Branniff sold their South American routes to Eastern. You might have some recollection about that.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Waco-

I empathize with your concerns for the junior pilots. For once, someone is looking out for them. However, the saying, "It has to hurt if its to heal" is applicable here. A few growing pains to eliminate whipsaw is best for all pilots. That is one of the goals of the proposal. If I got furloughed as a result, I would still support it because the furlough would be short-term.

"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"

 

[Wacopilot]

Thinking long term...I agree we should, and I do but also remember folks, without brandscope a merger is worthless, if there are furloughs the merger is worthless. Pay the price, sacrifice.... yea all that, but being furloughed is a price to high. Hey Dieterly, how old are you?????? I have been an alpa member for four years, two at Piedmont...please don't start that crap, allow maturity to take hold.

Now by no means am I trying to get everyones panties in a wad, just trying to make folks think......And my take on the whipsaw thing, this is a moot arguement. I haven't seen whipsaw since both CMR/ASA mec's began drinking beers and eating pizza every two weeks. There is more dialogue between our MEC's that the whipsaw is only in the head of the pilots that continue to press the issue.

One more flamebait item...if we merge before ASA has a new contract, we are contributing to the "race to the bottom"....my reason being, if we are still two separate pilot groups then ASA WILL GET CMR + some percentage again raising the bar. If we merge, we will all take conecessions......please explain without screaming this mentality.


adios

WACO

 

[Caveman]

Wacopilot posted:

"....but also remember folks, without brandscope a merger is worthless,..."

I absolutely agree with you on this point.

Caveman

 

[Cash]

(asa pilot here)
we are presently living the whipsaw. i'm definately not about to suggest concessions here, but what is better for us 5,10,15+ years down the road? and when i say us i mean 'pilotgroup' and 'DAL'. there are some big issues we will face, and many details to answer, but they can be answered. and nobody here will be furloughed
where's surplus?