Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

[lakefrontpilot]

Cleveland hopkins is under some MAJOR construction! they have finally completed 6L-24R though! the longest runway there (by one foot!) at 9000 feet! This, as some say, is not long enough for flights to the pacific rim. What are all of your opinions of Hopkins?

 

[mmmdonut]

That was an airliners.net post if I have ever seen one...

 

[EatSleepFly]

That was an airliners.net post if I have ever seen one...

Complete with a five-star rating.

 

[lakefrontpilot]

Okay smart-ass... what the hell is going on over there. They are closing all kinds of crap and i was just wondering.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

OK, I'll bite. It's been a while since I've flown into Cleveland. I do remember making a tech stop on the way to Vegas out of there in the 727 because we couldn't carry enough fuel with a full load of pax (173). I don't know what the runway length was then, but 9000 feet seems more than adequate for the operations out of there. As for Pacific rim operations, It seems that only Continental would be interested, and they already have service out of Newark.

 

[minitour]

With Regards to 6L/24R, anyone know why the approach end of 24R wasn't made into an extension of the runway? I would have thought that could've solved any problems with not having a runway long enough...they've probably got what about 2,000 more just sitting there...any input?

-mini

PS Last time in there was about 11 at night and they were just finishing the setup on the Touchdown lights on that runway (6L/24R)...they looked a lil funky...anyone know if that got fixed/taken care of?

 

[as739x]

I find it hard to believe they expect to be able to do Asian Ops with a 9,000 foot runway. Europe, yes! But with a 777 from Hopkins, fully loaded, 95 degree, I don't think it has the safety margin. IMHO. I watch the 777 headed to Asia from San Francisco daily and I see more then a few rotating around the 8,000-9,000 mark. Thats at sea level with 70-75 degrees. I suppose Tokyo could be within range if as a high business/first class configuration.



On the note of Hopkins ever getting Asia flight. Hmmmmm! Let me think about that one and I'll get back to you in 15 years. OK!

AS739X

 

[mckpickle]

Ahhhhh Cleaveland. The mistake by the lake.

 

[minitour]

I find it hard to believe they expect to be able to do Asian Ops with a 9,000 foot runway....I watch the 777 headed to Asia from San Francisco daily and I see more then a few rotating around the 8,000-9,000 mark. Thats at sea level with 70-75 degrees...

Thats what I mean...there's got to be another 2,000' at the approach end of 24R...why is it closed? does anyone know?

-mini

 

[lakefrontpilot]

Thats what I mean...there's got to be another 2,000' at the approach end of 24R...why is it closed? does anyone know?

-mini

They don't want to have to deal with the 24 runways crossing 28. if they do that, they can only land on both directions in VFR conditions...

-J

 

[minitour]

They don't want to have to deal with the 24 runways crossing 28. if they do that, they can only land on both directions in VFR conditions...

-J

oh great...I move to Oklahoma and Cleveland gets VFR weather...

seriously though...what about a LAHSO
land 28 short of 24R
land 6L short of 10...seems feasable

-mini

 

[MJG]

My two cents:

Having been based at CLE for the last 6 plus years here's my take.

First off all the construction is badly needed. CLE is one of the worst airports in the country when it comes to handling capacity. Don't know if it's the amount of pavement, the controllers, the local airspace, the overhead airspace or just the lousy weather for half the year. For example, recently we were given a 15 minute delay to accomodate a wheels up time going from BUF-CLE. What's the big deal you say?? It was 0700 on a Sunday morning with severe clear between us and the airport. When we got on with the Chardon sector controller there was a whopping total of one other airplane one the frequency headed for Hopkins over the CXR arrival gate like us. That other aircraft was a friend of mine who had also been given a delay for a wheels up time coming out of BDL. WTF Over??

So maybe one of CLE's problems is rooted in the ATC system. Who knows. Newark has almost the same runway setup in the world's busiest airspace and they seem to handle it much better. CLE runs this jacked up system where there is a different tower freq for the right and left runway. So depending on which runway you get assigned you may talk to one or two or three different controllers before you either takeoff or land. Problem with this setup is that you can't hear what's going on with the other runway via the radio. You may be starting your takeoff roll and see a plane pulling up to an intersection of your runway ahead of you. Now since you can't hear that aircrafts radio transmissions (since he's on a different freq) you really hope to hell that he stops and holds short of your runway. Kinda scary if you ask me. CLE is also handicapped by its geographic location. It's located under some of the busiest jet routes in the country. Lots of transcon traffic and O'Hare traffic already overhead when you want to join the stream.

One of their biggest problems is lack of space to expand the airport. To run simultaneous ILS approaches I believe you need at least 2500 ft. between runways. To handle the current capacity that CLE has at certain times of the day they really need this ability. They'll never get it with the current location, not unless a whole bunch of houses are demolished and people uprooted and another new runway built on the South end of the airport. I will say this, it's not as bad as it was just a couple of years ago but it should be way better in terms of flow control into the airport.

I'm not sure where the nearly bankrupt city of Cleveland is getting the $ for all of this construction but having first built the new 24R and now completed it's expansion they're working on the taxiway tie inns between the three current runways. That's what all the equipment is doing out there now.

As far as chomping off the east end of 24R, I have no idea. Maybe it was to get the ILS minimums down to 1800 RVR or 200 DH. I think it was a 250DH and 4000 RVR before. I'd have to look at the approach plate.

Asia Ops: Never happen. CAL can barely keep the London flight going as it is. That's only a 757 and it's only been a seasonal flight the last couple of years. They wouldn't even have that flight if it weren't for Goodyear's corporate account and need to shuttle their employees back and forth to London.

CLE has lots of issues. It's one of the more embarassing airports as far as the terminal goes. Even Detroit managed to build a modern, up to date new terminal.

I could go on and on unfortunately but what's the point. It's a near bankrupt city, with a land-locked airport, with some of the highest landing fees, some of the worst ATC issues, one of the worst airport terminals and it's located right in a lake effect snow belt, what more needs to be said. Ahh CLE......

Don't even get me started on the employee shuttle bus......

 

[minitour]

Having been based at CLE for the last 6 plus years here's my take.

First off all the construction is badly needed. CLE is one of the worst airports in the country when it comes to handling capacity. Don't know if it's the amount of pavement, the controllers, the local airspace, the overhead airspace or just the lousy weather for half the year. For example, recently we were given a 15 minute delay to accomodate a wheels up time going from BUF-CLE. What's the big deal you say?? It was 0700 on a Sunday morning with severe clear between us and the airport. When we got on with the Chardon sector controller there was a whopping total of one other airplane one the frequency headed for Hopkins over the CXR arrival gate like us. That other aircraft was a friend of mine who had also been given a delay for a wheels up time coming out of BDL. WTF Over??

So maybe one of CLE's problems is rooted in the ATC system. Who knows. Newark has almost the same runway setup in the world's busiest airspace and they seem to handle it much better. CLE runs this jacked up system where there is a different tower freq for the right and left runway. So depending on which runway you get assigned you may talk to one or two or three different controllers before you either takeoff or land. Problem with this setup is that you can't hear what's going on with the other runway via the radio. You may be starting your takeoff roll and see a plane pulling up to an intersection of your runway ahead of you. Now since you can't hear that aircrafts radio transmissions (since he's on a different freq) you really hope to hell that he stops and holds short of your runway. Kinda scary if you ask me. CLE is also handicapped by its geographic location. It's located under some of the busiest jet routes in the country. Lots of transcon traffic and O'Hare traffic already overhead when you want to join the stream.

One of their biggest problems is lack of space to expand the airport. To run simultaneous ILS approaches I believe you need at least 2500 ft. between runways. To handle the current capacity that CLE has at certain times of the day they really need this ability. They'll never get it with the current location, not unless a whole bunch of houses are demolished and people uprooted and another new runway built on the South end of the airport. I will say this, it's not as bad as it was just a couple of years ago but it should be way better in terms of flow control into the airport.

I'm not sure where the nearly bankrupt city of Cleveland is getting the $ for all of this construction but having first built the new 24R and now completed it's expansion they're working on the taxiway tie inns between the three current runways. That's what all the equipment is doing out there now.

As far as chomping off the east end of 24R, I have no idea. Maybe it was to get the ILS minimums down to 1800 RVR or 200 DH. I think it was a 250DH and 4000 RVR before. I'd have to look at the approach plate.

Asia Ops: Never happen. CAL can barely keep the London flight going as it is. That's only a 757 and it's only been a seasonal flight the last couple of years. They wouldn't even have that flight if it weren't for Goodyear's corporate account and need to shuttle their employees back and forth to London.

CLE has lots of issues. It's one of the more embarassing airports as far as the terminal goes. Even Detroit managed to build a modern, up to date new terminal.

I could go on and on unfortunately but what's the point. It's a near bankrupt city, with a land-locked airport, with some of the highest landing fees, some of the worst ATC issues, one of the worst airport terminals and it's located right in a lake effect snow belt, what more needs to be said. Ahh CLE......

Don't even get me started on the employee shuttle......

roger

 

[nimtz]

Having been based at CLE for the last 6 plus years here's my take.

First off all the construction is badly needed. CLE is one of the worst airports in the country when it comes to handling capacity. Don't know if it's the amount of pavement, the controllers, the local airspace, the overhead airspace or just the lousy weather for half the year. For example, recently we were given a 15 minute delay to accomodate a wheels up time going from BUF-CLE. What's the big deal you say?? It was 0700 on a Sunday morning with severe clear between us and the airport. When we got on with the Chardon sector controller there was a whopping total of one other airplane one the frequency headed for Hopkins over the CXR arrival gate like us. That other aircraft was a friend of mine who had also been given a delay for a wheels up time coming out of BDL. WTF Over??

So maybe one of CLE's problems is rooted in the ATC system. Who knows. Newark has almost the same runway setup in the world's busiest airspace and they seem to handle it much better. CLE runs this jacked up system where there is a different tower freq for the right and left runway. So depending on which runway you get assigned you may talk to one or two or three different controllers before you either takeoff or land. Problem with this setup is that you can't hear what's going on with the other runway via the radio. You may be starting your takeoff roll and see a plane pulling up to an intersection of your runway ahead of you. Now since you can't hear that aircrafts radio transmissions (since he's on a different freq) you really hope to hell that he stops and holds short of your runway. Kinda scary if you ask me. CLE is also handicapped by its geographic location. It's located under some of the busiest jet routes in the country. Lots of transcon traffic and O'Hare traffic already overhead when you want to join the stream.

One of their biggest problems is lack of space to expand the airport. To run simultaneous ILS approaches I believe you need at least 2500 ft. between runways. To handle the current capacity that CLE has at certain times of the day they really need this ability. They'll never get it with the current location, not unless a whole bunch of houses are demolished and people uprooted and another new runway built on the South end of the airport. I will say this, it's not as bad as it was just a couple of years ago but it should be way better in terms of flow control into the airport.

I'm not sure where the nearly bankrupt city of Cleveland is getting the $ for all of this construction but having first built the new 24R and now completed it's expansion they're working on the taxiway tie inns between the three current runways. That's what all the equipment is doing out there now.

As far as chomping off the east end of 24R, I have no idea. Maybe it was to get the ILS minimums down to 1800 RVR or 200 DH. I think it was a 250DH and 4000 RVR before. I'd have to look at the approach plate.

Asia Ops: Never happen. CAL can barely keep the London flight going as it is. That's only a 757 and it's only been a seasonal flight the last couple of years. They wouldn't even have that flight if it weren't for Goodyear's corporate account and need to shuttle their employees back and forth to London.

CLE has lots of issues. It's one of the more embarassing airports as far as the terminal goes. Even Detroit managed to build a modern, up to date new terminal.

I could go on and on unfortunately but what's the point. It's a near bankrupt city, with a land-locked airport, with some of the highest landing fees, some of the worst ATC issues, one of the worst airport terminals and it's located right in a lake effect snow belt, what more needs to be said. Ahh CLE......

Don't even get me started on the employee shuttle bus......

Ditto. Best decision I made was leaving CLE for EWR.

 

[deskjobssuck]

I love how they put the fancy new tile down in part of the terminal, but the nastiest, ghetto carpet remnants down in the rest of the C Concourse. At least they have good food...not.

As far as 6L/24R not crossing 10/28 any more, have you done the Vis10 with ops off of the 6s lately? So you're coming in on 10, which is fine, but there is an airplane on approach to 6L that will land the same time you do on 10. Hope they don't overrun. The really neat part, though, is when they launch a guy off of 6C while the other two on short final for the other runways. Seeing how they have a ton of go-arounds anyways in CLE due to the super fly ATC services, it just seems a little on the unsafe side for a permanent runway configuration.
And I love the shuttle bus. Especially the old guy on the weekends who blasts preachers that tell us all that alcohol causes orgies on the streets. I only wish I was kidding, but I've heard him twice on Sunday afternoons. Maybe I should just stop working weekends. Or start drinking more.

 

[minitour]

...
And I love the shuttle bus. Especially the old guy on the weekends who blasts preachers that tell us all that alcohol causes orgies on the streets....

im headin to the bar right now!!!

-mini

 

[mmmdonut]

If I had a dollar for every time I got a crappy vector from CLE controllers, I'd have at least twenty dollars.

All my captains say, "they train controllers here"... yeah it shows.

 

[LJDRVR]

I heard a good one last week from a co-worker of mine. Southwest checks on with CLE approach and is given the obligatory 25 miles-from-the-airport 170 knot speed reduction for 24R.

"Unable" says the SW Captain.

When the approach controller asks why, he replies with something along the lines of:

"We try to run an on-time airline, and everytime I come up here you guys issue some ridiculous speed reductions, and it makes us late. Unable."

The uncertain controller then asks what he can do.

"We'll give you 210 knots" replies Southwest.

"O.K., Southwest_____, maintain 210 knots."

HAHAHAHAHAHA. If I ever tried something like that, they'd give me a phone number, and make me "reduce to final approach speed". I thought it was awesome.

 

[lakefrontpilot]

LJDRVR-- LOVE IT! HAHA! I would have loved to hear that one live! HAHA! LOL!!!

 

[lakefrontpilot]

Did they finally extend runway 6R-24L to 11,000 feet? They had the runway closed for a while and now it's open. I think they are in the process of turning the center runway into the taxiway. I don't really know, so if i'm wrong, let me know please


[email protected]

 

[Nova]

No, 24L-6R was closed so they could do some intersecting taxiway modifications.

 

[lakefrontpilot]

when ARE they planning on extending the runway?

 

[Nova]

Right now it looks like they have their plate full with the ramp and taxiway improvements so I would guess that we're a year away from them starting the actual contruction. It does appear that they are improving the land south of the airport for the eventual expansion.

 

[lakefrontpilot]

well... that's a start, i guess. I figured that they would be moving much faster than that. Now that i think about it, the order they are going in is logical. slow, but logical

who doesn't love the city of cleveland?

-J

 

[lakefrontpilot]

what gates do American West and American Eagle use? American Eagle probly uses AAL's, but what about cactus? I can see that they share A-9 with continental, but there has to be more than that-- they account for what... 4% if the overall traffic. this is the same as US Airways, but they have FOUR gates. I have the list from the CHIA website, www.clevelandairport.com

Jason

 

[lakefrontpilot]

Where do the different cargo companies park... specifically?

 

[Best on a Camel]

All I know is ATC sucks in CLE. Have they figured out how to use their hold short lines yet?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Taxiing around CLE is like trying to sqeeze between three fat mama's on the NYC subway to harlem....

 

[NEDude]

I heard a good one last week from a co-worker of mine. Southwest checks on with CLE approach and is given the obligatory 25 miles-from-the-airport 170 knot speed reduction for 24R.

"Unable" says the SW Captain.

When the approach controller asks why, he replies with something along the lines of:

"We try to run an on-time airline, and everytime I come up here you guys issue some ridiculous speed reductions, and it makes us late. Unable."

The uncertain controller then asks what he can do.

"We'll give you 210 knots" replies Southwest.

"O.K., Southwest_____, maintain 210 knots."

HAHAHAHAHAHA. If I ever tried something like that, they'd give me a phone number, and make me "reduce to final approach speed". I thought it was awesome.

I know this was posted a while ago, but I just came across it. Anyway, I was flying that day and heard this exchange between SWA and CLE ATC. True story and quite funny.

 

[minitour]

All I know is ATC sucks in CLE. Have they figured out how to use their hold short lines yet?

Not sure about the hold lines but...

I was on an Eagle flight a few days ago out of CLE and we sat at the ILS line for 6R for 15 minutes (not exaggerating either - from when I looked at my watch when we were stopped to when I looked again on the TO roll was 15 mins)...then all of a sudden I look out my left window and see 2 planes on final and we start taxing up to the runway hold line and wait for the two planes to land and clear the runway...

wtf?

I've had mixed results from them...from getting vectored out over the lake for a 300 mile final in a 152, to progressive taxi from a friendly helpful ground controller (some chick), to coming in from the East and being vectored to a left downwind for 24C (uh? why not just a base or straight in?).

I don't think they "suck", but they definitely aren't the "best"


-mini