clearence limit?

[Lrjtcaptain]

Okay, me and the sup are arguing over what the clearance limit of a route is. We both agree, initial clrnc limit is airport filed to. Let say you go SFO LIN LIDAT BTY FUZZY6 ARR TO LAS. LAS IS THE CLRNCE LIMIT. Your talking to LAS approach and get a vector to the ILS 25L approach. Is the clrnce limit the end of the approach or is it still the airport?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

As I understand it, the clearance limit is designed to put procedures into place in the event of a comm failure. This being the premise, I would imagine that the airport is technically the clearance limit as your write it down and fly it. In the event things go smoothly (no lost comm.) you follow the clearance to the airport and when within the terminal area, you receive a sort of revised clearance, namely the approach clearance which allows you to execute a particular instrument approach to a specified runway.

So IMO, the clearance limit is the airport, up until its revised and you receive an approach clearance.

This CL is really a procedural thing in place for how to proceed during lost comms. Consider the clearacne limit revised or canceled upon being given that approach clearance.

 

[sigler]

I think it is still the airport. About the only time I can think of the clearance limit as not being the destination airport is when you´re cleared to a fix and told to hold at it.

So if the controller at your origin airport says N12345 you´re cleared to LAX via the blah blah blah departure etc etc etc, your clearance limit is LAX. That will only change if somewhere down the line someone clears you TO a point (suchs as N12345 cleared TO the Razorback VOR). If when you get there you haven´t received a clearance TO another point, you´ve got to hold.

Any other clearance (such as an ILS clearance, direct-to clearance etc), in my understanding, does not mean that your clearance limit has changed.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

..but if you're given an approach clearance to a runway at the destination airport, the clearance limit thing is a moot point. You've made it to the airport or at least the terminal area where youre vectored for the final. The limit is designed to assist you in a preplanned manner so that you will know what routes alttitudes, etc. to follow in the event you lose comms. It gives you an ending point, temporary (enroute fix) or permanent(airport).

 

[frog_flyer]

c-l-e-a-r-a-n-c-e

clearance

can i have it in a sentence please?
part of speech?

roger roger we've got clearance clarence whats our vector victor?!?

 

[sigler]

..but if you're given an approach clearance to a runway at the destination airport, the clearance limit thing is a moot point. You've made it to the airport or at least the terminal area where youre vectored for the final. The limit is designed to assist you in a preplanned manner so that you will know what routes alttitudes, etc. to follow in the event you lose comms. It gives you an ending point, temporary (enroute fix) or permanent(airport).

agreed

 

[Say Again Over]

Ok I'm not familiar with that STAR but my guess is that if I recieve a vector for the approach and lose my radio, I will keep on trucking in, descending on the stepdowns and shooting the approach (7600). :nuts:

 

[Hold West]

I think it is still the airport. About the only time I can think of the clearance limit as not being the destination airport is when you´re cleared to a fix and told to hold at it.

Exactly correct. Which is why holding clearances start with the phrase, "Cleared to <fix>....", and clearances out of holding start with "Cleared to <airport>..."

 

[erichartmann]

Your clearence limit is the last fix, waypoint, or airport you have been cleared to by ATC. You could be cleared to a VOR. Arriving at that VOR you would be expected to hold on the inbound course, right turns with the appropriate IAS & timing for your altitude unless other wise published until ATC gives you further clearance. It behooves you to get an expected further clearance time, just as you would if ATC had issued you instructions to hold at that VOR. All this allows you to proceed to the destination in the event of lost comm, hold there until your ETA, then shoot the approach, as you would if you lost comm enroute while in IMC.

 

[Say Again Over]

Originally Posted by sigler
I think it is still the airport. About the only time I can think of the clearance limit as not being the destination airport is when you´re cleared to a fix and told to hold at it.

You don't have to be told to hold, in many circumstances (non radar, like in the Caribbean man), without an amended clearance you best not proceed any farther than the fix you are cleared to initially. (oops, like erichartmann said):0

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

so if your clearence limit is the airport...your cleared for an ILS...go missed....does that mean your IFR flightpaln is terminated hence you flew to the airport, didn't make it......now your on the missed...what is the clrnce limit on the missed????

 

[erichartmann]

so if your clearence limit is the airport...your cleared for an ILS...go missed....does that mean your IFR flightpaln is terminated hence you flew to the airport, didn't make it......now your on the missed...what is the clrnce limit on the missed????

No. In that case your clearance limit is now the missed approach fix, which may or may not have a published holding pattern. You would miss, hold at the fix, then proceed to your alternate in the appropriate timeframe at a safe altitude.

Bear in mind all this is predicated on your being nordo and in IMC.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

well, my understanding is that once cleard for an approach the clnce limit is the end of the approach, hence the end of the missed approach procedure. Screw my understanding.....What is the book answer?

 

[hyflyt560]

Related: Pendleton, Oregon is a good example of the VOR not located at the airport, but both are called Pendleton. Often times a controller will say, "cleared direct Pendleton." I thought that meant direct to the airport since that was my clearance limit from the departure airport; I was wrong. A couple of pilots from my guard unit thought it meant to the VOR since it happened to be in the flight plan; they were wrong. One of the supervisor/trainers at Seattle center said the controller's handbook specifically states they must say either direct to the Pendleton VOR or direct to the Pendleton airport. I presume he was correct as I didn't take the time to research beyond calling him.

 

[Say Again Over]

Pendleton VOR or direct to the Pendleton airport

Right, if it's to the navaid / fix and you don't have a clearance for the approach you better enter holding over that fix, if it's the airport I think the correct phraseology would be "via the bla bla bla approach". I fly to a lot of destinations where they are just moving coffee beans around on a table and many times I am not able to get on the frequency due to congestion or whatever, this sets up the above scenario in many cases.

 

[erichartmann]

Related: Pendleton, Oregon is a good example of the VOR not located at the airport, but both are called Pendleton. Often times a controller will say, "cleared direct Pendleton." I thought that meant direct to the airport since that was my clearance limit from the departure airport; I was wrong. A couple of pilots from my guard unit thought it meant to the VOR since it happened to be in the flight plan; they were wrong. One of the supervisor/trainers at Seattle center said the controller's handbook specifically states they must say either direct to the Pendleton VOR or direct to the Pendleton airport. I presume he was correct as I didn't take the time to research beyond calling him.

I'm pretty sure he's right. When I started flying RNAV capability was virtually non-existant. There were a fair number of co-named but not quite co-located VOR's and airports. A clearance to PDT was assumed to be to the VOR, then as filed and would often be stated "cleared to PDT as filed". Many of those VOR's have now been renamed i.e. Indy to Brickyard, Capital to Spinner etc. I will generally ask, in a case like PDT, if the controller means the airport or the VOR. It's an interesting little trap. You're cruising along FD&H with an enroute controller issued clearance to PDT, he either specified or you've assumed he meant the VOR, and now you're getting close, the freqs busy - What to do? You better set up a hold until you can get a word in edgewise. Never actually had it happen, but came close a few times.

The missed approach fix is your clearance limit if you miss the approach. Without further instruction from ATC you must hold as published or on the inbound course if you have missed.