Cleared for the Visual - What Altitude set in Alerter or MCP?

[Cardinal]

When cleared for a visual approach what altitude do you set in the altitude alerter or Mode Control Panel? Looking for some input on your airline/operator's policies on this issue. Our system is a dumb alerting box with no autopilot in the loop. As it stands, we are required to put pattern altitude (1500' agl) in the box. This generates a "bong" 1K prior at 2500 AGL, then 300' low at 1200 AGL.

Both of these bongs come during a very busy phase during the final maneuvering, configuring, and frequency changes of the flight. These "stray" bongs are perhaps acknowledged (we're not required to do so) if things are quiet at that instant, but ignored wholesale if we're in the midst of a checklist or radio transmission.

My personal feeling is that the C-chord of the altitude alterter should be a sacred sound, one that both crewmembers absolutely must look up, identify, and acknowledge. My fear is that our procedures condition us to pay less attention to the bong, a circumstance which will eventually bite us during another similarly busy period of terminal maneuvering. We don't have an autopilot that will level at the selected altitude if we are distracted. If the PF and PNF are simultaneuosly distracted, we bust the altitude - period.

Beyond that, WTF is pattern altitude? We spend almost no time there, we occasionally fly it during a downwind leg at an uncontrolled field. That's it. At our Class B hub it is a completely superfluous, academic concept. I used to just ignore the manual on this issue, but now I'm tasked with teaching it and it's killing me. Thus I'm doing some research prior to taking my case to our operations people. If you could include your carrier that be helpful as well.

So what do you set in the alerter when you're cleared for the visual?

 

[whaleroast]

Visual approach, we set traffic pattern altitude.
Instrument approach, we set the missed approach altitude.

On a visual, it's nice to know what your tpa is when you're flying a downwind or whatever, that's why it's there. Plus, if you go missed, you're probably not going to have to do a missed approach procedure, merely join the downwind leg and do the visual again.

Ignore the bongs, C-chords (I'm not Beethoven so they sound like noise to me) or whatever they are. If you hear something look up, make sure its not a master warning, and commence the approach.

 

[Wiggums]

Since there is no longer any need for altitude alerts I spin it up to some random number, never a number ending with x000 or x500. This prevents any altitude warnings on a visual, and also if for some reason the altitude alerter is not set correctly for the next leg you will notice because 9700' is an odd altitude to be assigned for departure.

 

[LarryinTN]

We set it to the touchdown zone elevation (minimus for an instrument approach). That gives us an alert at 1000' above touchdown which is a standard call and the altitude at which we must be stabilized. When it alerts at 1000' we make our call then set the altitude to which we will climb in the event of a go-around (missed approach altitude for an instrument approach).

 

[puddlejumper]

Our GOM doesn't address a procedure, but personally, I like to set 1500' AGL (TPA). This gives me an alert at 2500' (slow to less than 200 kias, check that approach checks are complete) and then at 1200' it goes off again, reminding me to verify gear down, which we generally get by 1500'. Once the gear is down and before landing checks are complete up to flaps and YD, I like to set the alerter to something like 4000' or whatever. This ensures no more tones in the critical time below 1200' and extinguishes the ALT light on the ADI annunciator until the RADALT alerts of DH (if it's set).

PJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Since there is no longer any need for altitude alerts I spin it up to some random number, never a number ending with x000 or x500. This prevents any altitude warnings on a visual, and also if for some reason the altitude alerter is not set correctly for the next leg you will notice because 9700' is an odd altitude to be assigned for departure.

TPA is the way to go.....

At one carrier, pilots would put the published MAP altitude. It would be 5000' for example. Now when an a/c does a go around it becomes ATC's #1 priority. What had happened was guys would set go around thrust and reach 2000+ fpm going thru 2500MSL. ATC calls and says maintain 2000ft. Thrust to idle and pitch down HARD!

Here is more stuff...from a while ago....

The Visual Approach Go Around​

Quote:
5. This is a question mainly designed to see how you think. I think the best answer is that since you are on an IFR flight plan and cleared for an IFR approach, you would fly the published missed approach. The published missed is desinged to keep you out of the way and I can't see you flying a nice rectangle pattern at O'Hare.


Designed to keep you out of the way? I'd love to see me doing a nice VFR pattern at ORD, JFK, EWR, LGA, DCA etc......

Do a MAP in LGA ILS 22 ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0504/00289I22.PDF ) and the flight path will jam up northbound Korry3 arrivals ( http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0504/00289KORRY.PDF ) In fact, the ILS 22 MAP hold fix is PROUD intersection, which is the last fix on the Korry3 arrival.

A MAP for JFK ILS 31R sends the aircraft to Canarsie and Colts Neck. Too close to EWR and thier departure procedures (for me). http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0504/00610I31R.PDF

The approach briefing goes like this.... "it'll be a visual app backed up by the ILS .......blah blah blah..... in case of a Go Around we'll fly the published MAP." Huh? WTFO?

The reason we default to published MAP is the training world. The FAA PTS and company training programs require pilots to demonstrate the ability to execute a MAP. However, Flying the Line is not a PTS checkride......

It is very frustrating to see professional pilots plan for and accept a visual approach clearance with a full published instrument MAP primed and ready to go in the back of thier minds... from the Dogs....

The Visual Approach Go-Around​

By Capt. Brad Alberts​

Ask any group of pilots what the proper procedure is for the go-around from a visual approach, and you are bound to get a variety of answers. Throw in a communication problem (busy/block/lost frequency/ actual NORDO on the go) and the answers become even more interesting and less obvious. Aside from the great number of risks that crew takes by accepting a visual approach in the first place, there is a need to determine the proper course of action for a go-around off a visual approach clearance.

This issue was taken up at Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee (ATPAC) in July 2000. FPA is a voting member of this FAA advisory committee. After much discussion and a review of a number of documents, it was determined that sufficient guidance exists and no further changes to FAA publications would be required.

Here is what we found. First, pilots are expected to remain VMC. The published Missed Approach Procedure (MAP) is not available on a visual go-around. So don’t use it. What does ATC expect you to do? If you have operating radios (99.999 percent of the time) the tower will give you instructions—probably to turn, or to climb, or both. An aircraft going around becomes their top priority. You’ll be re-sequenced with existing traffic and given another approach.

What if you cannot contact the tower? It’s rare, but it does happen. You’re still required to remain VMC. At this point, you’re treated like a NORDO VFR aircraft in the traffic pattern. ATC will take the appropriate action clearing traffic for you. Of course, you’re going to make every attempt to contact the tower (try guard frequency?). You are expected to turn crosswind (left or right traffic, appropriate to the circumstances and the runway configuration), downwind, base, and final in accordance with standard AIM procedures. (Do you remember tower light gun procedures?) Also, the pilot/controller glossary has information under Go-Around.

Your FPA Safety Committee recommends that unless conditions are picture-perfect and the airport, runway, and traffic to be followed are rock-solid, accepting a visual approach clearance is highly questionable. The ILS or other IFR approach procedure is always preferable. Fly safely.


There is more!

This is from the ATC Controller handbook. Reading it will take you to the next level.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html#7-4-1
7-4-1. VISUAL APPROACH

A visual approach is an ATC authorization for an aircraft on an IFR flight plan to proceed visually to the airport of intended landing; it is not an instrument approach procedure. Also, there is no missed approach segment. An aircraft unable to complete a visual approach shall be handled as any go-around and appropriate separation must be provided.

The AIM. Sometimes it needs to be dusted.
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/G.HTM

GO AROUND- Instructions for a pilot to abandon his/her approach to landing. Additional instructions may follow. Unless otherwise advised by ATC, a VFR aircraft or an aircraft conducting visual approach should overfly the runway while climbing to traffic pattern altitude and enter the traffic pattern via the crosswind leg. A pilot on an IFR flight plan making an instrument approach should execute the published missed approach procedure or proceed as instructed by ATC; e.g., "Go around" (additional instructions if required).

MISSED APPROACH-
a. A maneuver conducted by a pilot when an instrument approach cannot be completed to a landing. The route of flight and altitude are shown on instrument approach procedure charts. A pilot executing a missed approach prior to the Missed Approach Point (MAP) must continue along the final approach to the MAP.
b. A term used by the pilot to inform ATC that he/she is executing the missed approach.
c. At locations where ATC radar service is provided, the pilot should conform to radar vectors when provided by ATC in lieu of the published missed approach procedure.

 

[Rythm3]

I usually set 1,000 ft in the box if cleared for the visual, and set 0,000 when cleared to land.

This is not so the alerter will beep, but so I don't have to look over at the guy sitting next to me and ask, "are we cleared for the visual," or, "are we cleared to land?"

 

[FN FAL]

...Both of these bongs come during a very busy phase during the final maneuvering, configuring, and frequency changes of the flight. These "stray" bongs are perhaps acknowledged (we're not required to do so) if things are quiet at that instant, but ignored wholesale if we're in the midst of a checklist or radio transmission.

My personal feeling is that the C-chord of the altitude alterter should be a sacred sound...

Have you considered Dick Bong?

He'd kick your ass in a flying contest, then make you eat that book you let fly your airplane.

 

[FL420]

TPA is the way to go.....

I agree. 14 CFR 91.129, 130 and 131 require large or turbine-powered aircraft to fly a TPA of 1500 feet AGL in Class D, C and B airspace respectively, unless a non-standard TPA is specified in the Airport/Facility Directory.

14 CFR 91.129
(e) Minimum Altitudes. When operating to an airport in Class D airspace, each pilot of --
(1) A large or turbine-powered airplane shall, unless otherwise required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria, enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of at least 1,500 feet above the elevation of the airport and maintain at least 1,500 feet until further descent is required for a safe landing;


(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:

(2) Unless otherwise required by the prescribed departure procedure for that airport or the applicable distance from clouds criteria, each pilot of a turbine-powered airplane and each pilot of a large airplane must climb to an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface as rapidly as practicable.

Advisory Circular 90-66A recommends that large or turbine-powered aircraft fly a TPA of 1500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established TPA at non-towered airports.

Here is more stuff...from a while ago....

Good stuff. Thanks.

 

[Gorilla]

The NORDO VFR pattern is interesting stuff. I've never gone around p121 from a visual.

Dirrerent guys set different MCP stuff. Some guys make use of either FD or VNAV path steering, thus requiring something in the MCP that will work. Others, myself included, simply spin the thing way up, get it out of the way, and ignore the FD.