CL300 Sets speed record

[El Chupacabra]

You guys have ordered 20 more CE-750's for a total of 90!

GV

They have been ordered for a while but not many delivered in last year I think.

 

[LXJ31]

Well actually, yes. Chief pilots and Aviation Directors are so influential in determining the purchase of Gulfstreams that the company does much to accomodate them. There is a Customer Advisory Board, an Aviation Managers and Pilots seminar at Workshop and much customer golf.

Also, the sales executives normally approach a company through it's aviation department as opposed to going in at the Chief Financial Officer level as NetJets and others commonly do.

GV

I have done some demos recently and while initiating contact with an organization through its aviation department is effective, the purchasing decision is almost always the guy signing the check ie. a boardroom member. He will listen to his crew but the bottom line speaks much louder.

Sidenote: Recently did a demo where the competition (Dassault) told the customer the reason other jets have winglets is because their respective wing designs were mediocre. I thought it was funny...

 

[GVFlyer]

Going over the numbers last night, looks like this airplane (for our purposes) is going to obsolete our GIV. Incredible.

Congratulations on your purchase of three CL 300's. I have a friend who is a Bombardier salesman and he showed me the airplane when it was first certified. Nice cockpit and a roomy cabin.

The CL300 may be more appropriate for your mission, but I don't believe that it has made the G-IV obsolete.

You are comparing a 75,000 lb, M 0.88, 4120 nm, Large-Cabin jet having a 40'4" L X 6'2" H X 7'4" W cabin to a 38,650 lb, M 0.83, 3173 nm, Mid-Size Cabin airplane with a 23'7" L X 6'1" H X 7'2" W cabin.

With all things considered, there was no comparison between the CL300 and the X or G200, especially at 17mil a pop.

Yes, it's an amazing airplane at it's price. The G200 has the edge on speed and range and a slightly larger cabin, but it costs $4 million more. The Citation X is more price competitive at $19.26 million and quick (2978 nm @ M.0.85; 3098 nm @ M 0.82), but the cabin is small: 23'6" L X 5'8" H X 5'6" W.

I think Flex Jet is going to sell a lot of CL300's. If entry into service goes smoothly it will be a great "Continental" aircraft.

GV

 

[mzaharis]

At the risk of spewing crap in a topic where I know next to nothing, isn't one of the shortcomings of the CL300 the support? Bombardier got very low rankings on the Aviation International News rankings of customer support, and that seems to be consistent with comments that have been posted around here.

Has Bombardier improved their customer support?

http://www.ainonline.com/Features/productsurvey.html

Again, I don't have any experience in this area, so take my comments for what they're worth (next to nothing).

 

[LXJ31]

The G-IV and CL300 are apples and oranges in most areas. Its not fair to compare the CL-300 in terms of pax and range and ts not fair to compare the Gulfstream in terms of price.

One of the best aspects of the 300 with respect to private operators and Flexjet is the design philosophy. Most of the major system components are Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) which can be changed out in less than twenty minutes; the paperwork takes longer. With regard to the AIN article, that publication tends to shaft Bombardier when they get the chance. At any rate, last year included a large restructuring of Bombardier Corp. so I could understand if the customer service rating when down. If it isn't markedly improved this year, I'll eat my hat.

 

[Heavy Set]

Good news that Flexjet will be hiring into the 300. That airplane looks great on the ramp...

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hey doesn't the Sovereign do Mach .84 and cost about 12 million?

Just kidding. The 300 is a great looking airplane and should sell well....

 

[CE750Driver]

What's the X fuel burn at .92 cruise? I've never flown one but always wanted to know.

At max cruise, FL 410, about 900lbs a side starting and 850lbs a side at the end of the trip. Of course higher temps and higher altitudes lower those numbers. I have noticed a big drop in fuel flow when you pull it back to .88, after that the savings are much smaller. LRC varies from .79 to .82 depending on weight.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

From what I heard, the X could not carry the fuel necessary for the CRQ-BGR trip, that is why that city pair was chosen.

Maybe I'm wrong, any X pilots around?

 

[El Chupacabra]

The X should need about 10,000 #s and could take 11,400 #s with 8 pax unless TO runway length is an issue.... Not sure if it is at CRQ, but it is at HPN rw 34. Would take about 4 hrs 24 minutes with those winds @ ISA 41,000 ft.

 

[Raskal]

Yes, it's an amazing airplane at it's price. The G200 has the edge on speed and range and a slightly larger cabin, but it costs $4 million more. The Citation X is more price competitive at $19.26 million and quick (2978 nm @ M.0.85; 3098 nm @ M 0.82), but the cabin is small: 23'6" L X 5'8" H X 5'6" W.

I think Flex Jet is going to sell a lot of CL300's. If entry into service goes smoothly it will be a great "Continental" aircraft.

GV

Well, just to inject my 2 cents, Gulfstream is an incredible company when it comes to after the sale service. That is just as big, if not more of an issue when it comes to buying aircraft. Just go ask General Motors why they're dumping their five X's...Is it because the X's are bad airplanes? No, as a matter of fact they love the airplanes, the X has been great for them. It's Cessna's inability to provide service and stand behind their product, something that company is famous (or infamous) for.

If Bombardier can service anywhere near Gulfstream they will sell a ton of aircraft, if not then a couple of years down the road it'll show.

 

[LXJ31]

"The X should need about 10,000 #s and could take 11,400 #s with 8 pax unless TO runway length is an issue.... Not sure if it is at CRQ, but it is at HPN rw 34. Would take about 4 hrs 24 minutes with those winds @ ISA 41,000 ft."



I'm not a Citation pilot but it was my understanding the reason they chose CRQ is that the Citation could not do the trip off Rwy 24 under given conditions. That may not be true for Rwy 6. However, how often do they use Rwy 6 at Palomar?

 

[NJA Capt]

I'm not a Citation pilot but it was my understanding the reason they chose CRQ is that the Citation could not do the trip off Rwy 24 under given conditions. That may not be true for Rwy 6. However, how often do they use Rwy 6 at Palomar?

As I posted above....the X will do the trip from CRQ. We ran it through our dispatchers' computer a few days ago.

Also, it's hard to match Bombardier's "conditions" when they haven't disclosed what they are. (ie...temp, weights etc)

I am not bashing the CL 300, I think its a nice looking plane. With the exception of the EDO-floats it uses for flap hinges.

 

[GVFlyer]

Whats the X fuel burn at .92 cruise? I've never flown one but always wanted to know.

Gulfstream took a Citation X in on a trade and let the flight test engineers have it for qualitative testing before it was resold (this competitive analysis is something many manufaturers do, Bombardier leased and instrumented a GV, but they were disappointed in their results; Cessna sent an Experimental Test Pilot to GV initial at FSI). The engineers ballasted the X to 8 pax and put the requisite test stations and orange wire in the jet and this is what they came up with including NBAA IFR reserves:

Normal Cruise - M 0.86 Range: 2,613nm
Long Range Cruise - M 0.82 Range: 2,767nm
Intermediate Cruise - M 0.90 Range: 1,889nm
High Speed Cruise -M 0.92 Range: 773nm
MMO - M 0.93M

Takeoff distance 5,140ft.
(SL,ISA, MGTOW)

Landing distance 3,410ft.
(SL,ISA,MLW)

Initial Altitude FL 430

When ballasted for 4 passengers the engineers got:

M 0.85 - 2,978 nm
M 0.82 - 3,098 nm
M 0.92 - Not Tested

The test crew observed that the highest cruise speeds occured in the mid- 30's, but fuel consumption increased by almost 50 percent. Flying in the 40's dropped cruise speed by 25 to 35 knots, but available cruise speed was still up to 499 knots.

Direct Cost per hour: $1453 (CL300 Direct Cost is $1297, G200 is $1348 for comparison)

By the way, did you know that Richard Smith was the first pilot at NJA to get a Citation X type rating? He was as excited as a kid at Christmas when the first one was delivered and gave me a tour of the bird during a visit to Columbus back in the early days of Gulfstream Shares.

GV








.

 

[banned username 2]

Intermediate Cruise - M 0.90 Range: 1,889nm
High Speed Cruise - M 0.92 Range: 773nm

YIKES!

I guess this pretty much debunks the myth that Citation X guys are criss-crossing the country all day long doing M0.92...

 

[NJA Capt]

YIKES!

I guess this pretty much debunks the myth that Citation X guys are criss-crossing the country all day long doing M0.92...

Of course not....which aircraft IS going to takeoff at MTGW and go straight to Mmo @ FL410 in level flight????
We hardly ever carry 8 pax anyway. Either way, even at max wt, we usually are able to cruise at .89 for the first hour and .90 or above the rest of the way.

 

[Hawkered]

....and look sexy while you're doin' it man. That X is the best looking bird in the sky!!

 

[LXJ31]

Gulfstream took a Citation X in on a trade and let the flight test engineers have it for qualitative testing before it was resold (this competitive analysis is something many manufaturers do, Bombardier leased and instrumented a GV, but they were disappointed in their results; Cessna sent an Experimental Test Pilot to GV initial at FSI). The engineers ballasted the X to 8 pax and put the requisite test stations and orange wire in the jet and this is what they came up with including NBAA IFR reserves:

Normal Cruise - M 0.86 Range: 2,613nm
Long Range Cruise - M 0.82 Range: 2,767nm
Intermediate Cruise - M 0.90 Range: 1,889nm
High Speed Cruise -M 0.92 Range: 773nm
MMO - M 0.93M

Takeoff distance 5,140ft.
(SL,ISA, MGTOW)

Landing distance 3,410ft.
(SL,ISA,MLW)

Initial Altitude FL 430

When ballasted for 4 passengers the engineers got:

M 0.85 - 2,978 nm
M 0.82 - 3,098 nm
M 0.92 - Not Tested

The test crew observed that the highest cruise speeds occured in the mid- 30's, but fuel consumption increased by almost 50 percent. Flying in the 40's dropped cruise speed by 25 to 35 knots, but available cruise speed was still up to 499 knots.

Direct Cost per hour: $1453 (CL300 Direct Cost is $1297, G200 is $1348 for comparison)

The runway 24 length at CRQ is 4897 ft, according to a web source and, without the chart in front of me, has a sharp uphill grade.

Whats avg. MGTOW for the NJA Citation X?

I'd like to know the exact numbers we used are too, maybe Flex357 knows.

 

[El Chupacabra]

CRQ is not level but has a slope of ZERO.

330' at one end and 326' at the other.

 

[LXJ31]

Well...like I said, don't have the chart handy.

 

[GVFlyer]

Whats avg. MGTOW for the NJA Citation X?

The analysis I'm looking at says Citation X maximum takeoff weight is 36,100 lbs. I don't have any idea what average mission weights at NJA are for the C-750.

GV

 

[Diesel]

The Ultra can take off max gross and go right to 410 and hit .755 all day long.

Yeah that's a sexy plastic plane.

 

[Hawkered]

The Ultra is a fantastic plane! There is not another plane that isn't better for short-field hot high in the entry level class. That thing can sure top weather when it needs to. I actually have considered going to it.

 

[LXJ31]

Could the Ultra make that trip from CRQ to BGR? Never flown one of those either.

 

[Hawkered]

No it would have to stop in Kansas and if the weather were bad in the NE, it would have to stop in, say, PA as well.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I spoke with the Flexjet Chief Pilot today. They departed CRQ at about 1,000# below max takeoff weight (38,650#), with six adults, 2 children, and plenty of bags.

(NJACapt) Of course not....which aircraft IS going to takeoff at MTGW and go straight to Mmo @ FL410 in level flight????

After departure, they climbed directly to FL410, flew the entire trip at MMo (.83M), and landed at Bangor with enough gas to go on to Goose Bay (+2700#).

It was a comfortable ride too, with the flat floor and spacious cabin.

 

[GVFlyer]

I spoke with the Flexjet Chief Pilot today. They departed CRQ at about 1,000# below max takeoff weight (38,650#), with six adults, 2 children, and plenty of bags.

After departure, they climbed directly to FL410, flew the entire trip at MMo (.83M), and landed at Bangor with enough gas to go on to Goose Bay (+2700#).

It was a comfortable ride too, with the flat floor and spacious cabin.

???

I'm not trying to be argumentative here - just understand the math. The press release said they averaged 572 miles an hour which is 497.58 knots. It further says that the average tail wind was 47 knots. So, 497.58 average speed minus the 47 knot tailwind equals 450.58 knots or a speed of M 0.76 in the air mass.

To check my math, I took the distance between CRQ and BGR - 2335 nm and divided it by 497.58 and came up with 4 hours and 41.5 minutes which is the time Bombardier is claiming for their record.

M 0.83, which is 476.06 knots above the Tropopause doesn't enter into the equation anywhere.

GV

 

[FraxJockey]

Speed

I suppose if they could fly .83 mach ALL the time they would, but the fact of the matter is they can't...what about below 10000' or when Vmo in no where near Mmo. That would account for any discrepancy, or maybe the fact that they didn't go straight line either. That's my take on it. I'm sure they flew .83mach every opportunity they could.

 

[NJA Capt]

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/28b5a42ea6ab5bd086256df100511ceb/$FILE/T00005NY.pdf

CL300 (Citation X)
SL-8000' Vmo 300 (290)
8000-29K Vmo 320 (350)
above 29K Mmo 0.83 (0.92)

Max Ramp 38,650 (36,400)
Max landing 33,750 (31,800)
Max fuel 14,162 (13,000)

Max T/O alt 8000 (14,000)
Max cruise alt FL450 (51,000)

Takeoff thrust 6924# (6764#)

Date certificated: June 4, 2003 (May 31, 1996)

What is the fuel burn on the CL300? With the rough numbers presented so far it appears that the CL300 (2400 pph) has a higher fuel burn than the CX (<2000 at max cruise).

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Inject some common sense into that math. They weren't at Mach 0.83 in their first segment climb, or on short final, for Pete's sake!

NJACapt: I'd say the CL300 burns about 2400... in the first hour. After that, it's more like 1600-1700.