Civilian Tankers

[Miami Freight]

Would any of you military guys with experience in this mission care to comment on the proposal that this mission be outsourced to civilian airlines? How hard/dangerous is it? Do you think it is viable? If you were a civilian pilot who's company did this what would you consider?
Thanks

 

[HarryShadow]

I think it would probably be easier to schedule in some situations than working with TACC! I'd be willing to bet the AF would have to do some research and testing to approve any of its aircraft to utilize a civilian tanker. Baseops.net had a link about the Omega Tanker (I think that's what it's called)...pretty interesting to say the least! We'll see what the future holds!!!

 

[RampFreeze]

It is a reality. Check out http://www.fuelbirds.com/ and/or http://www.omegaairrefueling.com/

They don't have boom capability yet (drogue only), but are planning on installing it to be a competitor in the USAF tanker replacement decision. (i.e. instead of spening big $$$ now in buying new tankers like a KC-767, use this service in mass as an interim measure until the next generation of aircraft (like a KC-787) and more DoD $$$ are available in the future)

Talking to a Navy friend of mine, they love the Omega guys. First, they can actually get a tanker for their exercises (vs. TACC telling them no, all of the tankers are deployed or the crews aren't available because they are at home doing one of their million training requirements like chem warfare training, suicide awareness training, etc. and/or have already been deployed 200 days out of the past 365) Second, he said that they don't have all of the restrictive rules that the USAF tanker guys are forced to operate under. For example, USAF KC-135s don't hot-pit refuel, but that isn't a restriction for Omega. The Omega guys can turn their airplanes A LOT quicker on the ground and get airborne back to where they are needed much quicker. (Remember, every hour spent in the air is $$$ to Omega, vs. every hour spent on the ground is potential lost revenue) All in all, my friend says that they love Omega because they can actually schedule and get a tanker, they get much higher utilization rates out of them when they are there and they are more flexible in how they operate.

 

[SIG600]

Ramp Freeze is spot on with the Omega guys. Their fantastic. Flexibility is not a word in AF vocabulary, but the Omega guys can change plans in a second if you need it.

 

[Bjammin]

At first I thought it might not be a good idea, but after reading and thinking about it I think it's great, not only for the reasons above, but because the turnover rate would be alot less, ie: flight deck crew not going to and from the schoolhouse and enlited crew not transferring all the time. Over time the crew would become extreamly seasoned and very proficient.

Would be good fun for a pilot career as well.

I wonder how the liability insurance works. If they're making money then I think it's awesome.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Sound's very interesting. Can you imagine the demand with international costumers with both drogue and boom. Hummm, potential investment. I'd be down with flying for them after I retire.

 

[Miami Freight]

What does it take to be proficient at that mission? I'd imagine that there is a lot of work for the boom operator but not sure about the crew up front. I think it would be smart for some things like training in CONUS or for ferrying TACAIR long distances. It would take some of the pressure off the military assets. They could even help get the C-17s from coast to coast.

 

[Bjammin]

What does it take to be proficient at that mission?.

Knowlege of military airspace, best airspeeds for different A/C types, when best to start a turn or not, formation flying (the tanker can act as lead for a flight of fighters and take care of all comm, clearences, diplomatic issues for international crossings, etc. ).

 

[LearLove]

looks like airline management doing the pilot hiring:

Omega Air Refueling operates a fleet of B-707 and DC-10 aircraft, currently configured for hose & drogue refueling. Air crew are self-employed contractors, without defined benefits and no monthly guarantees of work.


​

 

[Fox-Tree]

...........formation flying (the tanker can act as lead for a flight of fighters and take care of all comm, clearences, diplomatic issues for international crossings, etc. ).

Formation Flying? If the tanker is acting as lead and doing all the other stuff (which they'd be doing with or without the fighters) - the fighter pilots the ones flying formation.

 

[TGR]

Its a great idea to augment the stateside training and exercise commitments! The tanker force is spread really thin right now and the receivers are always asking for another boom in the air. (There is usually plenty of gas airborne, just not enough booms to go around). The mission is pretty easy, mainly a big coordination and communication exercise. I cant speak for the omega guys, but in the ANG and active forces we do the vanilla flying, but also fly formation (up to 6 or more tankers), tactical arrivals and departures and NVG stuff. As for you Navy guys, if you need a tanker for support, try calling an Air National Guard unit (no TACC interference). I know us Jersey guys would love to hang out at the beach for a few days.

Km

 

[Bjammin]

Formation Flying? If the tanker is acting as lead and doing all the other stuff (which they'd be doing with or without the fighters) - the fighter pilots the ones flying formation.

I'm sorry, but when I'm flying lead I consider that formation flying as well. Sometimes just sucking wingtip is the easy part. Flying a good lead and being smooth and predictable for the guys on the wing can be alot harder.

My 2 lincolns

 

[Fox-Tree]

I'm sorry, but when I'm flying lead I consider that formation flying as well. Sometimes just sucking wingtip is the easy part. Flying a good lead and being smooth and predictable for the guys on the wing can be alot harder.

My 2 lincolns

Good point. I wish you were flying the last tanker I refueled off. However, flying lead as another fighter and flying it as a tanker ain't the same thing. They usually have the A/P on anyway.

Sometimes we start wondering if the guys up front are even looking outside. We'll be refueling in the soup, in and out of a layer and can see it's clear 1K' above. We end up having to ask them to climb. Yeah, I know.... Wahhhhhh.

 

[Deuce130]

What happens when the tankers go on strike or have a work slowdown? The one thing the military has over civilians is that you can order people to do things. Might not have that feature when dealing with civilian pilots.

 

[Bjammin]

That's a good point, but guys that would sign up to do it would ususally be the type that would, hopefully, always put the mission first.

Fox - I was thinking of exactly that sort of thing.

 

[Deuce130]

That's a good point, but guys that would sign up to do it would ususally be the type that would, hopefully, always put the mission first.

Fox - I was thinking of exactly that sort of thing.

They probably would be .... at first. A few years on the job always changes attitudes.

 

[TGR]

Good point. I wish you were flying the last tanker I refueled off. However, flying lead as another fighter and flying it as a tanker ain't the same thing. They usually have the A/P on anyway.

Sometimes we start wondering if the guys up front are even looking outside. We'll be refueling in the soup, in and out of a layer and can see it's clear 1K' above. We end up having to ask them to climb. Yeah, I know.... Wahhhhhh.

I agree to a point. When I was in C-5s I thought the same thing about the tankers. Unfortunately, its not that simple. You guys have been operating above the AR track and know were the tops are. We often never get above the track, and if we tried to climb that extra 1000 ft to get in the clear every time we "thought" it was only a 1000 ft to the tops we might never get the AR done. Many times there are other variables, another AR right behind you, airspace issues, another tanker above that is coming in, etc. A lot of times its just not worth it for the 5k a fighter is going to get. If its a heavy that is taking on 140k, thats a different story. Hope it helps explain a little. We do try give you guys the best conditions if its possable.

BTW, I was always curious, How come you guys have a radar, wingman, AWACS, etc pointing out the tanker, but still can not find the tanker. It seems to me a fighter should be able to find the tanker without any assistance. "Sometimes we start wondering if you guys are even looking outside."

Sorry, that was a shot, but you can see how easy it is to critique the other guy with this stuff.

Just my 2c.

 

[Bjammin]

I can't speak for the Hornet or any other pointy nose, but we had air to air TCN and AWACS snaps only. We could tell if you were coming or going by the rate of DME change and them make the turn when your were abeam.

One clear day I saw the taker at 40NM. I think my eyes have gone way downhill since then.

 

[Be 23]

Who is going to refuel all of those new Marine V-22's? The KC-130 fleet isn't big enough to keep all of the pilots current for training, even if they didn't have a war (or two) on their schedule. I think there will be some opportunities for civilian tankers as the unprobed H-46's get replaced with probed V-22's.

 

[fishalaska]

Great Idea, but...

The mil guy can be ordered to risk his/her life while outsourcing might result in no fuel in a hot combat zone. Probably would not happen but the possibility is there. It might not even be the pilots--maybe management would not be willing to risk their airplanes or some other reason beyond the normal.

My 2 cents,
Fish