Civilian IFF?

[RJPilott]

Im trying to get ahold of some of my military friends to ask this question... but its early and i figured i'd post it here as well...


Do military pilots get training in Civilian visual IFF? I know they take course for visual ID... was just wondering if its strictly military.. or do they cover civilian as well..

Im strictly talking visual ID.. .not transponder IFF. It'd be nice to know our military pilots have some civilian ID training when they have their hand on the trigger...

Thanks in advance...

 

[CCDiscoB]

Yes, of course. I've intercepted a lot more civilian aircraft than MiGs.

 

[RJPilott]

Thanks Disco... thats a major help.. can you elaborate a bit?? Im discussing this with someone else that says he is military... and this is what he says...(we were discussing if a military pilot could visually tell the difference between a 73 and 75)

"I was a military pilot. Fixed wing tactical carrier pilot for 10 years. We had NUMEROUS classes on visual ID of MILITARY AIRCRAFT!. Never had a single class, slideshow, or presentation on ID'ing civilian aircraft. I can tell an F-15 from a F-14 at 10,000 ft. A Mig29 from a Mig31 at 2 miles. However, my first year in the 121 world in 1999, I spent trying to tell a MD80 apart from a DC-9, A 76 from a A300. The only reason I learned to ID civilian A/c was because ORD ground would tell me to get in line behind a certain type of A/C.
And besides a few 757 used as Air Force 2, and a single navy squadron currently transitioning to 73's and a couple of Airforce squadrons that use the 73 as a transport plane in noncombat theaters, no, that type of plane is not common in the military. You can conceiveably go your entire 20 year career and never see one of these planes. SHEEZZE!"


thanks again for your help....

 

[AdlerDriver]

.....Im strictly talking visual ID.. .not transponder IFF. It'd be nice to know our military pilots have some civilian ID training when they have their hand on the trigger...

What scenario are you worried about? I don't see what would be so critical for a mil pilot to be able to ID civilian aircraft by type.

My military experience is similar to you friend's in your second post. Any knowledge of civ aircraft I had while in the military was gained of my own accord.

 

[RJPilott]

The only mil pilot at the scene of the Pentagon on 9/11 was Marine Aviator Terry Morin.. .and this was his testimony...


"I estimate that the aircraft was no more than 100 feet above me (30 to 50 feet above the FOB) in a slight nose down attitude. The plane had a silver body with red and blue stripes down the fuselage. I believed at the time that it belonged to American Airlines, but I couldn’t be sure. It looked like a 737 and I so reported to authorities."


http://www.coping.org/911/survivor/pentagon.htm

Im doing research on 9/11. I looked through all the eyewitness terstimony.. etc. Terry is the only pilot. There is another pilot who says he saw a "757", but he also says he saw the nose and wings torn off. And as we all know... no wreckage was found except for engine parts.. landing gear main.. etc (which by the way.. was never matched up by s/n to their aircraft with mx logs... for any of the flights, NTSB gave powers to FBI for investigation.. FBI did nothnig.)

Here is the other pilot that saw a 757.

"TIMMERMAN: I was looking out the window; I live on the 16th floor, overlooking the Pentagon, in a corner apartment, so I have quite a panorama. And being next to National Airport, I hear jets all the time, but this jet engine was way too loud. I looked out to the southwest, and it came right down 395, right over Colombia Pike, and as is went by the Sheraton Hotel, the pilot added power to the engines. I heard it pull up a little bit more, and then I lost it behind a building.

And then it came out, and I saw it hit right in front of -- it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames. It was horrible. "


His name is Tim Timmerman: here is his data on landings.com...

Dont know if its the same Tim...note the address...
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?pass=83964478&ref=-&mtd=41&cgi=%2Fcgi-bin%2Fnph-search_namd&var=9&buf=66&src=_landings%2Fpages%2Fsearch_namd.html&1=timmerman&2=timothy&5=&6=&7=&9=&8=&10=&13=&14=&16=&17=&max_ret=10&start_ret=1


So anyway... the compressor rotor found at the site looks more consistent with a JT8D than a RB211. The only measurements that were done on parts were from photos and estimates by looking at "the person standing next to them in the photo".... freakin joke...lol... the estimates and speculation can be found on http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

None of these parts were tagged and matched with the aircraft mx logs... as far as i know. If anyone has the report, i'd appreciate a link. I offer no theory or speculation... just doing research... Thanks again guys...

 

[avbug]

RJPilot,

You sound like you're pursuing a conspiracy theory. Whatever.

If I were on the ground at the Pentagon and saw an aircraft about to impact, I suspect the first thing my feeble brain registers would not be "That's a B757-200." More along the lines of "Geeze, that's big," or more likely "Oh ********************..."

Same if I were to look out the window at the WTC and see something about to strike the building.

I know civillian airplanes very well. And military aircraft, too. But at a time like that, I suspect that a specific ID might not be the first thing on my mind. That the eyewhitness was able to remember much of anything about the aircraft is more than a little remarkable.

I know my firearms. I have to say that in a holdup, chances are that I might be able to tell you the other guy's weapon looked big...but I'm not certain that I might tell you what it was, or any details about it, other than it was pointed at me. No conspiracy there...just human nature in a pinch.

I've seen a lot of aircraft wrecks. Funny thing is that after impact and a fire, a lot of the parts look alike. Engine parts. Airframe parts. Body parts. Get the idea?

I agree that all pilots should have a handle on identifying other aircraft. I've met too many pilots who didn't know what they were looking at when traffic was called...they saw something, and that was good enough for them. Knowing other aircraft, their capabilities and limitations, description, outline, etc, is important, and ought to be a part of every pilot's education. Regardless of what they fly, or their mission. If that information isn't taught, the pilot should seek it out for himself or herself and get educated.

 

[RJPilott]

RJPilot,

You sound like you're pursuing a conspiracy theory. Whatever.

If I were on the ground at the Pentagon and saw an aircraft about to impact, I suspect the first thing my feeble brain registers would not be "That's a B757-200." More along the lines of "Geeze, that's big," or more likely "Oh ********************..."

Same if I were to look out the window at the WTC and see something about to strike the building.

I know civillian airplanes very well. And military aircraft, too. But at a time like that, I suspect that a specific ID might not be the first thing on my mind. That the eyewhitness was able to remember much of anything about the aircraft is more than a little remarkable.

I know my firearms. I have to say that in a holdup, chances are that I might be able to tell you the other guy's weapon looked big...but I'm not certain that I might tell you what it was, or any details about it, other than it was pointed at me. No conspiracy there...just human nature in a pinch.

I've seen a lot of aircraft wrecks. Funny thing is that after impact and a fire, a lot of the parts look alike. Engine parts. Airframe parts. Body parts. Get the idea?

I agree that all pilots should have a handle on identifying other aircraft. I've met too many pilots who didn't know what they were looking at when traffic was called...they saw something, and that was good enough for them. Knowing other aircraft, their capabilities and limitations, description, outline, etc, is important, and ought to be a part of every pilot's education. Regardless of what they fly, or their mission. If that information isn't taught, the pilot should seek it out for himself or herself and get educated.

I agree... its not exactly the right time to be getting a good grasp of aircraft ID. But first impressions do count for something... Im sure i could tell the difference between a 757.. and a 737-200... especially with the sound. And the 737-200 does have JT8D's.

Im not pursuing anything but the truth. The only people that have offered theory is the govt. "The Pancake Theory". If it turns out their theory is fact... excellent.. i'll feel much better about all those people dying for a cause. So far, everything i have researched has been half-fast.. and half-baked in the govt story (they dont even mention WTC 7 in the 9/11 Commission Report.. anyone remember WTC 7? If not.. you better look into it). The FBI doesnt even label Osama Bin Laden as a suspect for 9/11.. .and we went over there to "smoke him out".. .remember?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

Now, i've had my fair share of people lumping me in with the missle and pod theory wackos... please show me some respect. I dont think there were missles. Im just doing research... and its pissing me off the more i look into it...

There are plenty of people looking for answers from this govt.. including the families... including a RICO case agaisnt Bush and 53 others.. something you wont see on Fox.

:cheers:

 

[AdlerDriver]

So how did the FDR from AA 77 get in the Pentagon crash site? Where is that 757, its crew and pax - Oh, no wait.... Area 51 right? UFB.

 

[avbug]

RJ mate,

You started the thread posing as a legitimate person with a question about training and recognition. What you turned out to be is flame bait, and perhaps the worst kind.

Burn your flag elsewhere.

You won't be hearing from me again; clearly you're not worth the trouble to reply. I urge anyone else feeling the desire to reply, to refrain.

 

[McGillicutty]

But first impressions do count for something... Im sure i could tell the difference between a 757.. and a 737-200... especially with the sound. And the 737-200 does have JT8D's.

Good for you. Keep searching, I think you're on to something!

 

[sardaddy]

Don't know what your angle is, I really don't care. But I will say that I have been in military aviation for 18 years, had my fill of visual IFF both air and ground. I have been through many safety schools that used civil aircraft accidents for the training. After all that, I can honestly say the only civil jet I can identify without a reference is the 747. Could be I am a slow learner but I believe it is because I could care less.

I couldn't tell you the difference between a 73 and a 75 especially by the sound. I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this crazy theory.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

RJFlake,

If someone went all the trouble to orchestrate 9/11 with fake airplanes, don't ya' think they'd at least get an exact copy of a AA 757 to do their targeting? If some clown can get an exact copy of Air Force I for an internet graffiti hoax, a 757 would be even easier.

I guess you clowns will move onto the exact copy theory later.

 

[RJPilott]

Thanks for the help guys... and the respect. You're right.. its not worth it to research this type of stuff. I'll stop now. Thanks again.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

Just some common sense thinking...if a large aircraft is coming in on the deck with the engine's firewalled, even the best acft identifier may make a mistake between a 37 and 57 in short notice. It's not like folks had much time to decide if it had a longer nose or higher tail when it's coming in balls to the wall. I doubt there was much time to tell the engines by sound either.

Accidently fanned the flames...sorry, I'm done.

 

[Slice121]

RJFlake,

If someone went all the trouble to orchestrate 9/11 with fake airplanes, don't ya' think they'd at least get an exact copy of a AA 757 to do their targeting? If some clown can get an exact copy of Air Force I for an internet graffiti hoax, a 757 would be even easier.

I guess you clowns will move onto the exact copy theory later.

It's all a hoax. Planes really didn't crash into the WTC either!

 

[flashman]

It's all a hoax. Planes really didn't crash into the WTC either!

C'mon Slice...you and I both know Rudy G. signed a secret agreement with the Canadians to hide the WTC behind one of those Star Trek cloaking device thingys...