CitationShares Upgrade timeframe

[pilot125]

I have to weigh in on this. I know everyone wants to build up that time in your logbook, but c'mon, do it the right way, PLEASE!

Let's say we're talking about a corporate jet requiring two pilots, a PIC and an SIC. And the SIC, who is also typed in the airplane, is manipulating the controls during one leg. Now he wants to build up that golden PIC turbine time so he logs that leg as such.............NO NO NO!!! Are you kidding me?

As far as I know (and I'll admit that it's not that much), but one pilot logs PIC time (whoever signs out the aircraft) and the other logs SIC time (whether or not they are manipulating the controls or not, typed or not typed).

Don't care if you want to recite an FAR to justify your ridiculous logging practices........don't care, I could on any given day, pick out any given reg, and interpret it 20 different ways to make it fit my current situation. Well, whatever, you get my point.

Go ahead, log it that way, and wait till you get that UPS interview, and you try to explain yourself when asked why you were logging PIC time while you were hired as a First Officer. Love to be a fly on the wall while you "explain to the UPS people" about the logging regs that they apparently do not know very well................ha ha ha.

 

[7777]

Interesting Sky. I know a guy that was flying King Airs for a very well known company here who just got layed off for money reasons. They kept the pilot that was making less money and got rid of the guy that was making about $10,000 more. He is now considering going back to the 135 operator he left for the 91 job. I wonder if they are going to opt for a fractional share next?

I see alot of these newer fractionals and wonder how they will make it. Either it is poor business decisions or there is a market for them and holes to be filled.

I find DayJet to be a very interesting operation and think they could do very well. They fly that Eclipse which probably cost less to operate than alot of business jets, they are day out and back point to point flights with no overnights, holidays or weekend flying (finding pilots should be easy), I am not sure how well they do on the scheduling and like but they kind of remind me of how SWA started in Texas. Not sure if there is a big enough market in the SE for these guys to flourish and expand but I do find it interesting. APC says they are going to be buying 200+ more aircraft so they are very optimistic.

Interesting for sure. Guys that can do the job as well as the big boys with less overhead and for a cheaper price always seem to flourish. SWA is a perfect example.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

I find DayJet to be a very interesting operation and think they could do very well. They fly that Eclipse which probably cost less to operate than alot of business jets, they are day out and back point to point flights with no overnights, holidays or weekend flying (finding pilots should be easy), I am not sure how well they do on the scheduling and like but they kind of remind me of how SWA started in Texas. Not sure if there is a big enough market in the SE for these guys to flourish and expand but I do find it interesting. APC says they are going to be buying 200+ more aircraft so they are very optimistic

I find the day jet operation very interesting as well. For the sake of the pilots (who I always consider to be my brothers and sisters in the aviation community) I hope they do very well. The problem I see with their operation is the aircraft and marketing plan. How many companies operate Intra-Florida? That is what the article written about them in AIN says they will primarily focus. If businesses do utilize it then then it would seem to be as a supplemental operation to some sort of other program. (whole ownership or fractionalization). When things get tough people usually get rid of supplemental items very quickly. Payload on an eclipse jet is a very real problem. How much can it actually carry in terms of people vs fuel? CS and NJ's are both getting rid of their payload limited aircraft on property. Seems to me as a businessman I would purchase another aircraft even the PC-12 knowing that I had the option of leaving Florida should my business needs arise. Finally as you said they should have no problem finding qualified pilots for now. Many will value day trips and no overnights very very much. If the economy slips the current salary day jets provided may not make a suitable QOL situation for many experienced aviators. Will turnover and the associated training costs be a problem? The aircraft manufacturers are learning tons of great things from CS, Flex, NJ's, Options, and all the other fractional programs. Initially the aircraft we are all flying were not designed to do what we do with them. (Tons of hours yearly ans lots of landings and engine cycles) I know Cessna has said the learning curve has been steep and they have learned lots about the shelf life of their product and continue to improve on designs because of all the hours logged. This makes for better products in the future (one of the reasons I expect the embraer VLJ program to be a reliable workforce). What reference does eclipse have for what day jets wants to do with the product? Will they have the resources in place to meet the maintenance demands? Some companies will plan on ordering products right until the doors close. I put no value in the 200+ orders day jets currently has. Show me 200+ deliveries and I will be impressed.

 

[7777]

Very interesting points. Those are things I have no experience with and enjoyed reading your perspective having flown in the industry like you have.

What airframe has Cessna developed to handle fractional flying specifically? Is the Sovereign in that category because it is their latest and greatest? How about the Columbus, what have you heard they are doing with it to make it more suitable to fractional flying? I know the engines are supposed to be more fuel efficient but I haven't seen or heard much else other than it looks very much like the X.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Very interesting points. Those are things I have no experience with and enjoyed reading your perspective having flown in the industry like you have.

What airframe has Cessna developed to handle fractional flying specifically? Is the Sovereign in that category because it is their latest and greatest? How about the Columbus, what have you heard they are doing with it to make it more suitable to fractional flying? I know the engines are supposed to be more fuel efficient but I haven't seen or heard much else other than it looks very much like the X.

I'm sure the Columbus has some built in items that Cessna has learned from many hours being put on it's other airframes. Where they have made great improvements is in both maintenance and engineering. It's not un-common to get engineering bulletins that warn of certain impending problems, or design changes that the company will implement on your next service center visit. These are items learned about through many hours being put on the airframe and constant service inspections. For instance lets say a particular item goes bad over time such as the radar tilt adjustment motor. Cessna finds it goes belly up @ about the 5000 tilt point. It would take corporation A 3 years to get to 5000 tilts but only takes CS or NJ's 8 months due to the daily use of the aircraft. Cessna engineering gets in front of the problem an re-installs new motors on existing customer aircraft before it breaks during a thunderstorm. The next model update or new production aircraft also benefits by getting the new updated and stronger motors. I've flown serial number 2 and 600 of a particular aircraft model. Sometimes it could have easily been a whole different airplane model. The feedback of high time operators is very valuable information. Finally if CS gets a couple of crappy aircraft that need updating later due to engineering problems we get a little upset. If corporation A gets and airplane like that the next time they purchase a Hawker, or Lear. Kind of the same way we feel when we purchase cars we don't think were very well built. Often times it less of a this particular model sucks but more of a I will never buy this manufacturer again type attitude. I'm sure all the manufacturers have gained tremendous education from their perspective high time operators. The info NJ has I consider priceless because they can cross-reference several models from different manufacturers in the same size category. If I was a manufacturer I would be listening very closely to see why they prefer me or my competitor.

 

[7777]

Yep, the military does the same amount of flying and I have seen similar improvements come about as a result. I was just curious as to specifics for the airframes.

For instance, we have gone from a nicad to a lead acid battery and it has been wonderful for the type of flying we have been doing. We don't have the run down issues we had in the past and having to reset things like anticollision lights due to a weak battery are no longer an issue. If the lead acid goes, it goes...lol.

 

[7777]

Looks like you were on the money back on page 5, Sky. I guess DayJet just furloughed some pilots.

Goes to show how much I know about the industry. Good call, Sky.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Looks like you were on the money back on page 5, Sky. I guess DayJet just furloughed some pilots.

Goes to show how much I know about the industry. Good call, Sky.

This is very bad for the pilots of DayJet. They have lost a job in what right now is a very difficult job market. I wish them and their families the best of luck. I am sure situations like this one make that military retirement decision just a bit more difficult to make 7777.

 

[7777]

Yes it really does. How are things looking elsewhere?

 

[DBCOOPER]

Here's the deal.

If you are in a professional flying job, and you want to move up the food chain to a better flying job, you do not log any PIC time until you have upgraded to captain at your current flying job and are flying as such.

Is it legal to log all that "sole manipulator" crap? Yes. Don't do it. Upgrade to captain, and then log PIC.

Indeed...do people really not know this?