CitationAir How Much Longer

[wacoflyr]

I will fight for good conditions, but not at the expense of threatening the well being of my company. Furthermore, and thank you for the civilized post, I would NEVER mistreat a pilot who had struck, nor would I keep a list of strikers so I could harass them at every opportunity. Yet they would do those things to me. See the difference?

The difference is that YOU are determining what is best for the company. From what I understand, (and I am not over there) your union asked the company to stop hiring so many pilots before the furloughs, and has constantly suggested ways to make the operation more efficient. Sounds to me like they are behaving responsibly.

Unions can be bad, but rarely are. Sound familiar? Sounds like management, doesn't it? It has been said that companies get the union that they deserve. I believe this. At Avantair, we have no union. That is because our management team has been responsive.

Yes, you are a free agent. However, you cannot bargain as an individual with your company when you are paid according to scale. You can't quit because then you would be forced to start at the bottom of another list. If the company decides to treat the pilot group badly, and some have, then you have no recourse except to organize. That is why unions are legal in this country. That's right, the land of the free recognizes the importance of unions.

When you, an individual, decide that you don't want to be part of that organizing process, then you can choose not to participate. However, it is recognized that your pay has benefited from the union efforts, so you have to pay dues, which is only fair.

If you actively work against the union,(scab) then you are basically stating that you believe you are smarter and morally better than your fellow pilots. Of course they will be outraged. Loyalists were not treated well in 1776, and while such actions are hard to defend, they are understandable. Furthermore, as a senior pilot who will most likely be unaffected by whatever happens, you are in the indefensible position of deciding that what happens to you is more important than all of those pilots who are junior. They have families, too. Shame on you.

If your union had a history of poor behavior, I could sort of understand your attitude. It does not. If you had first tried to improve it from within, you would have some defense. You have not.

You come across as a conservative, which is fine. Most pilots are. Most pilots also belong to unions, and do not see any contradiction. They see it as their only recourse in an employment situation that is different from all but a few in the entire economy. I'm not asking you to vote for Obama. I'm just asking you to respect your fellow pilots.

Wacoflyr

 

[imacdog]

"But let's look at why flying wealthy/famous people around (again, something I no longer do) requires a higher degree of professionalism and safety than flying car parts."

Interesting attitude.

Seems to me that there should be no difference in the level of professionalism with which you approach your flying regardless of what is in the cabin.

Do you actually relax your standards if there are not "wealthy/famous" people" in the back?

There is a big difference between "responsibility" of flight duties (as you are touching on) and "liability", which I am talking about.

 

[pilotyip]

Go easy on the old timer...he's just a little past his prime.

No she posts over on the other site

There is nothing at all to be commended about a person who says he wants to scab.

wasn't commended for that, but for being civil in his posts, something a lot of people who are unsure of themselves have trouble doing.

From someone who thinks he's better because he flies wealthy people around (who think nothing of him).

as per above, when someone is unsure of themselves and their life choices they have to look down on someone to feel better about themselves.

From strickly a stick and rudder perspective, yes flying wealthy people (or any people for that matter) trains one to fly "better" than flying boxes....

Oh! please, we have had pilots go NJ from JUS, and that said they were disappointed with training they thought they would see a level above KYIP training. They said standards were very lax compared to what they were used to at JUS. As per 727C47 said guys coming out of the box hauling business have developed skills beyond smooth landings.

 

[imacdog]

LOL, okay YIP if the job your pilots do is worth the same, then why aren't they paid the same as the fracs?

 

[G4dude]

Wacoflier said: If you actively work against the union,(scab) then you are basically stating that you believe you are smarter and morally better than your fellow pilots. Of course they will be outraged. Loyalists were not treated well in 1776, and while such actions are hard to defend, they are understandable. Furthermore, as a senior pilot who will most likely be unaffected by whatever happens, you are in the indefensible position of deciding that what happens to you is more important than all of those pilots who are junior. They have families, too. Shame on you.


When I scab, and I will if a strike happens, it will not be because I think I am smarter and morally better than my fellow pilots. It will mean I disagree with what they are doing. And I won't intimidate them or threaten to make their lives uncomfortable. If you strike, I will not join you. We will just disagree. However, a union striker won't allow me to disagree. They will harass me for the rest of my career.
Unions are legal. I just don't like their tactics or (usually) their long term results. What I hate most is the coercion. Paying dues doesn't bother me, even. Being a member is ok, I guess. Coercion sucks when discussing issues or when a strike is happening, that's all.

 

[G4dude]

The difference is that YOU are determining what is best for the company. From what I understand, (and I am not over there) your union asked the company to stop hiring so many pilots before the furloughs, and has constantly suggested ways to make the operation more efficient. Sounds to me like they are behaving responsibly.

Unions can be bad, but rarely are. Sound familiar? Sounds like management, doesn't it? It has been said that companies get the union that they deserve. I believe this. At Avantair, we have no union. That is because our management team has been responsive.

Yes, you are a free agent. However, you cannot bargain as an individual with your company when you are paid according to scale. You can't quit because then you would be forced to start at the bottom of another list. If the company decides to treat the pilot group badly, and some have, then you have no recourse except to organize. That is why unions are legal in this country. That's right, the land of the free recognizes the importance of unions.

When you, an individual, decide that you don't want to be part of that organizing process, then you can choose not to participate. However, it is recognized that your pay has benefited from the union efforts, so you have to pay dues, which is only fair.

If you actively work against the union,(scab) then you are basically stating that you believe you are smarter and morally better than your fellow pilots. Of course they will be outraged. Loyalists were not treated well in 1776, and while such actions are hard to defend, they are understandable. Furthermore, as a senior pilot who will most likely be unaffected by whatever happens, you are in the indefensible position of deciding that what happens to you is more important than all of those pilots who are junior. They have families, too. Shame on you.

If your union had a history of poor behavior, I could sort of understand your attitude. It does not. If you had first tried to improve it from within, you would have some defense. You have not.

You come across as a conservative, which is fine. Most pilots are. Most pilots also belong to unions, and do not see any contradiction. They see it as their only recourse in an employment situation that is different from all but a few in the entire economy. I'm not asking you to vote for Obama. I'm just asking you to respect your fellow pilots.

Wacoflyr

Good post, actually. However, I am against many things the union does precisely because I worry a LOT about the junior guys. I have been laid off 11 times, and don't want anybody to go through that. I want them to not lose their jobs. Our junior people are really good pilots, good people, and deserve a happy career. I fear an activist union will endanger that. You might disagree with my conclusions, but never doubt my feelings about my colleagues.

 

[imacdog]

Keep digging that hole, G. Funny stuff.

 

[G4dude]

Waco said in his excellent post, " I'm just asking you to respect your fellow pilots."

I do respect my fellow pilots. I even respect the right to strike. I just don't agree with the tactic and fear the results. Why do the union goons not respect me as well? And I am well aware you are not a goon, Waco.

 

[imacdog]

And I commend you; you have never reverted to the famous FI name calling, you have been respectful in your posts. Unlike the standard response for many on FI who disagree with you. But it is easy to revert to name calling when you hide behind a screen name.

Your posts always have that touch of reality which brings up those inconvienet truths that many elect to ignore. Keep up the good work.

Proven wrong yet again, YIP!

Why do the union goons not respect me as well?

 

[G4dude]

Keep digging that hole, G. Funny stuff.

I am enjoying this conversation, actually. Very few of us capitalist pigs post here, it gets too unpleasant for them. I enjoy y'all's passion, as long as you understand the difference between a difference of opinion and malice aforethought. And thank goodness for anonymous message boards! I would NEVER say this stuff on the ASAP board.
By the way, here's hoping the CA pilots get hired by NJA or whomever as soon as possible. I understand corporate departments are doing some hiring.