Citation. The good, the bad and the ugly

[Boeingman]

OK, the time has come. My business has progressed to the point that we need an airplane. We have been talking to the brokers and airport salesman (lot lizards) but I want some unbiased info.

We are looking at a Citation I or II. Anyone with experience flying operating and maintaining these airplanes I would appreciate your thoughts, horror stories and everything else in between.

This forum, aside from the typical BS posted has some good info.

Thanks.

 

[sydeseet]

What else are you condsidering?

What would be a typical mission?

Are you going to manage/crew it yourself?

Is it going to be used for 135 also?

How important is comfort vs cost vs practicality vs ego?

This will help narrow down a few specifics for the panel.

 

[Boeingman]

What else are you condsidering?

What would be a typical mission?

Are you going to manage/crew it yourself?

Is it going to be used for 135 also?

How important is comfort vs cost vs practicality vs ego?

This will help narrow down a few specifics for the panel.

Sorry, was in a hurry. We have done some number crunching and are looking at a cash outlay of 1- 1.3 million.

Mission 400 - 900 miles.

Up in the air about crewing, but looking at contract pilots to start. I am going to get typed but I don't have the time to fly it as much as we will need the transportation. We are in discussions about managing the airplane. I do like the Cessna factory maintenace program.

No 135.

1 Cost, 2 Practicality, 3 comfort. 4 ego... I would have loved to get a Lear but to many peso's right now.

Thanks

 

[JetPilot500]

Citations are great for ease of operation. Generally speaking, almost any mechanic can work on them. An old instructor once told me, "Cessna makes one airplane, the Skyhawk. With a bigger engine it becomes a 182. Hang a turboprop on it, it becomes a Caravan. Put 2 jet engines on it and you have a Citation." Well, as silly as it sounds, it's not that far off. It is so easy to operate, that after pulling it out of the hangar, you can be in the air in 10 minutes if you are already fueled.

The big warning I have for you right now, is RVSM. It is coming very soon. All jets will be required to be RVSM certified to fly above FL290 when it comes. I have heard that it will be about a $300,000 upgrade to a Citation I or II. Citation I's have very little range to begin with, and if you end up having to fly your longer missions below FL290, you will become even more limited.

Whatever you do, keep your Citation away from the Citation Service Center. Find a good local mechanic to handle your day to day stuff. And find a decent shop to do the big inspections like the Phase V.

Citation I's are good for missions 200-500 Miles. Citation II's are good for 200-1000 Miles. More than that, you may want to consider other aircraft. They can do more than that, but their slower speed starts to make them more inefficient than other planes.

When I managed a Citation 500, we were able to significantly lower our costs by putting the plane on a 135 certificate. We got insurance for about 1/3 the cost of getting it on our own. Also, Hangar discounts, 40% fuel discounts at home base, training costs discounted, etc. And then there was revenue from the charter flights too. Even if we never flew one charter trip, it was cheaper to be on the 135 certificate than it would have been to be on our own.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

 

[ksu_aviator]

The two great things about a Citation is that it will go into nearly any airport and its cheap to operate. I flew a 500 and it was under $1000/hr to operate wet. But jet a was cheaper then.

The I is able to go about 700 miles loaded. But, it won't go above FL290 very often. Technically its a FL 410 a/c but its really done climbing around FL 310.

 

[Rick1128]

Haven't flown citations, but my former f/o has. What I have been told and my research backs it up the citation is less expensive to operate on a per mile basis than a King Air. Maintenance is lower. fuel burn is higher though. The stage length you are looking at is a good leg for the I & II. How many people would you normally carry? Much more than 3 plus the pilot(s), the I gets tight. In that case, the II would a better choice. Your budget should get you a pretty decent II. I wouldn't worry too much about RVSM with an early I. It doesn't like it much above 290. But it is a consideration in any aircraft. The prices current quoted are based on the International RVSM requirements. The FAA has just issued the Domestic RVSM requirements. It should be less expensive. Not too much, but maybe a little.

 

[FastPilot]

You might want to consider a Falcon 10. IMHO it is a much better airplane for the money.

 

[knelson]

If you are planning on keeping the aircraft for a period of more than 4 years, I think you may want to talk with the folks in ICT about some newer Citations. As a result of a poor economy, there are some pretty incredible tax advantages to buying a new bravo or CJ or something in that category. There is an accelerated depreciation law right now that can really help the books if you are operating a money-making corporation (hard to find right now). You can write-off (i think) around 35% of the planes total value in the first (just a ballpark from when I was at the factory tour/demo in July). The CJ2 and Bravo are quite a bit more money than you are talking about, but if you look at the long term, it makes sense in some cases. Possibly not in your case, but they will be glad to take you through the dog-and-pony show anyway.

Another great advantage is that they guarentee you can operate the Bravo cheaper (per mile) than a competetive turboprop, or they will pay the difference. That's really standing behind your product.

We ended up buying a used Ultra, but it was a very informative meeting none the less.

There are some pretty amazing buys in the used aircraft market right now, so I think you are getting in at a good time.

A Citation 1 is not going to do you much good. It looks like a jet, it sounds like a jet, but you have to get out of the way of the other jets. The same can be said for the II also. We get moved out of the way in the V/Ultra sometimes and we are at .74 (not death defying speed by any means, but it's not too far off the .78 that I hear most of the big-boys going).

Whatever choice you make, it will be a learning experience for you, and hopefully a positive one. Good luck in your search and I hope you have a positive experience. I do not, by any means, claim to be an expert in the Citation market, but if I can help you in any way, feel free to PM me.

Good luck!!!

Kevin

 

[Boeingman]

top

Thanks for the advice folks. It is appreciated.

Anyone have any problems with CessCom or part issues?

Looks like we might have to pony up some more money for a II. The I just doesn't cut it.

 

[Boeingman]

Cessna is very good with AOG parts deliveries. And there are so many Citations out there, that aftermarket support is excellent as well.

Be advised that most early (pre 1990) planes have vintage avionics that will not be compatible with GPWS and TCAS equipment requirements coming in 2005. Nor are they RVSM compliant. That's due next year in the US. SO you may be looking at a complete retrofit of comm, nav, autopilots, etc. Could run between $150K to as high as $400K per plane to do it all. Ouch.

I think Stevens has just developed an alternative RVSM STC, priced cheaper than Cessna.

The II likes to fly near it's max ceiling of 41000, so RVSM is a must. If you stayed below FL290, you'd never get anywhere, and burn tons of fuel to do it.

We are factoring in the cost for avionics upgrades during negotiations. What is on our side right now is there are some people really hurting and trying to unload airplanes. Although you're right, these retrofits are expensive, it is pretty much a buyers market to dictate either terms or reducing the asking price to cover future mods. Sometimes below current book.

I have heard that there may be waivers for 91 ops requirng TCAS and GPWS.

Thanks for your input.