Citation. The good, the bad and the ugly

[AV8OR]

Hey BM,

Just one point on the RVSM issue. You may want to check with Central Missouri at Columbia, MO COU. I think they may have a pretty good price. Frank Borman has a C500 that was out there having it done when I was there last. Just a thought.

Glad to hear your biz is going well. Just curious. What do yall do? PM if you like.

 

[JetPilot500]

Re: top

Looks like we might have to pony up some more money for a II. The I just doesn't cut it.

What is it about the I that doesn't cut it?

I wouldn't worry too much about RVSM with an early I. It doesn't like it much above 290.

I used to fly a 1973 CE-500 and we routinely flew at FL330 and FL350. Our TAS was routinely 350 Knots. We did not have Thrust Reversers which helped in cruise speed. T/R's are just dead weight in a Citation anyhow, IMO. Your Vref is around 100 KIAS and by the time you touch down and get them out your at 75 KIAS and its almost time to stow them. If you can, buy a I or a II without T/R's....cheaper maintenance, less weight, and better cruise speeds.

Also, be aware that a I or II is not very fast. .56 mach is about all. Every one else is wizzing by at .72 or better. We see a groundspeed of 290 KTS as a yearly average over all the trips. Only marginally faster than a King Air F90, at nearly twice the cost per hour.

With an average TAS of 350 Knots, you must've always had a headwind! I've seen groundspeeds as high as 510 Knots, and as low as 250 knots (depending on winds of course). The King Air F90 I used to fly generally flew at 260 KTAS at FL200. Runway performance is about the same. Our DOC's in the 500 were $750/hour (including: fuel, maintenance and engine reserves). I didn't see the books on the F90 for comparison, but I doubt they were much less. The F90 is awesome, but the 500 does everything better (except range), IMO. Fly 10,000' higher and almost 100 knots faster. On a 500 mile trip you will save almost 30 minutes in the 500 over the King Air.

JetPilot500

 

[Palerider957]

Boeingman:

Check out www.omnijet.com this website has a huge amount of information regarding operating costs, inspection time, etc. One thing, when they calulate fuel costs they use an unrealistic $2.00/gallon.

I've heard of RVSM upgrades costing in the neighborhood of 200K, depending on what the aircraft already has. You'll need a second air data computer, a certified autopilot that keep altitude within 25 feet (I think), and some other misc. items. If you wait a little bit you'll probably be able to pick up some aircraft really cheap. This RVSM is going to positively KILL smaller operators, not that the FAA gives a S@@t.

Good luck....

 

[Boeingman]

Guys (and Gals?) Thanks for the info. Looks like we are going to close a deal on a real nice Citation II.

A couple of final questions. Any recs. on schools for the type rating? I'd prefer to hear from only those that have actually attended or have direct contact with someone that has been
rated at a given place.

Also, contract rates for pilots. What is the market paying right now?

Several points given to anyone who can twist this into either an RJDC or PFT thread.

 

[OviedoBob]

I attended SIMCOM in Scottsdale last year for recurrent in the CE 500.. I don't think they offer the initial type at Scottsdale, but in Orlando they do. Beautiful new facility there with the latest sims. Their prices are the cheapest around. I found their quality of instruction excellent and personally know some of their Orl instructors and the training manager.

I give my recommendation to them. Been to Flt Safety also and they are excellent.

I guess its a matter of price and where you want to go.

I'm flying a Citation I now with the long wing conversion; good airplane but for my money I would go with a CII with good avionics and the bigger engines. It'll get the job done.

 

[OviedoBob]

Daily contract rates are about $225-250/day for a PIC. In addition $25-35 per day for overnight per diem plus any lodging expense.

What part of the country are you in? Northeast rates seem to be on the higher end of the daily rates. The big thing for hiring out contract pilots is what your insurance company will stipulate for experience. Usually require 50-100 hrs of in type time before they will allow the new type to act as PIC, but with considerable jet background and no violations/etc., they may waive this.

 

[501261]

Guys (and Gals?) Thanks for the info. Looks like we are going to close a deal on a real nice Citation II.

A couple of final questions. Any recs. on schools for the type rating? I'd prefer to hear from only those that have actually attended or have direct contact with someone that has been
rated at a given place.

Also, contract rates for pilots. What is the market paying right now?

I've been to FS ICT & LGB, SF DFW, and SC at MCO in the Citation. They're all the same, just work the best deal you can get. They all have older Level C Citation Sims, they're all alike. The older sims tend to not have the best "feel" and often break down. FS seems to have the most techs around to fix the sims when they break. As far as quality of instruction, it all just depends on the instructor, I've had some real good instructors and some "others" at each of these places.

We're paying $500 daily + expenses for day contract help, no problem finding help (everybody has a Citation rating).

Budgeting pointers:
Phase B $4,000 2 days, every 150 hours
Phase 1-4 $50,000, 10 days, every 300 hours
Phase V $90,000, 21 days, every 1200 hours
Hots $20-50,000, 14 days, engine 1800 hours
Overhauls $200,000, depends, engine 3500 hours
ELT install $15,000 4 days, required in 2004
TAWS B $40,000, required in 2005
RVSM $120,000, required in 2005 for FL290+
TCAS I $70,000

I'm sure you can get these all done for cheaper if the airplane is in good shape, but this is a good idea for budgeting.

 

[501261]

Daily contract rates are about $225-250/day for a PIC. In addition $25-35 per day for overnight per diem plus any lodging expense.

I can't believe people are whoring themselves out for that little. I'd never hire someone that has so little self respect that they'd fly for $225. Hell the local Baron driver charges more than that!

 

[knelson]

Day Rates

If you are personally providing pilot service for that kind of $$$, please don't post it here, we are trying to make a living at this. Thanks for your consideration of people that provide a service worthy of a more livable wage.

Sincerely,

Kevin

 

[LXApilot]

CE-550 a better buy

Just to put my two cents into the pot here... I've never flown a Citation I but I have have been familiar with companies that did/do operate that aircraft within the parameters that you have outlined. Seems to me, after all I have read, that the Citation II is a much better aircraft. We routinely fly FL310+ for stage lengths that average about 1000 miles or 2.5 hours flight time. With a full load an a normally equipped C550 you can take 5 people including pilots... anything more than that exceeds MGTOW if you are taking maximum range fuel. There is an option that can increase the MGTOW above 14,500 lbs., giving a little extra room for max passengers/baggage/fuel. Don't let the horror stories get to you, groundspeeds in the C550 are pretty good; i've seen anywhere from 300 - 510 or so, just depends on the winds and the temperature at altitude. Faster than a kingair and also capable of higher altitudes and less maintenance costs- giving you a lower per mile cost. As far as training goes - Flight Safety Atlanta has an awesome Citation program with top notch instructors. Let me know if you are interested and I can put you in touch with my connection over there- one of their chief Citation instructors. Maintenance? I would definately recommend a Part 135 certificate, but if you aren't interested in that, Paul who works out of Yelvington Aviation at DBN is widely considered to be the best in the business for CE-500 series mx.