Citation Shares Vector

[tailhookah]

To answer some of the questions I've seen regarding Citation Shares Vector:

It's a great company to work for with lots of potential. Pay for F/O's: 35000 Base, +2.3 hour per diem (I spend about 1/2 per day) and 250 day OT (outside of 7on/7off)
Captains: 64000 base + 2.30 per diem and 350 day OT.

Both positions offer a yearly bonus which has been around 3% or so. Pay increases of 2-5% a year on your base. Fast upgrade time (right now under a year if you have the time to do so) and a very bright future with planned aircraft purchases and the addition of the Vector part 135 program like NJA's Marquies Jet program. Most pilot's are happy and thankful we have a good job with a growing company, unlike our NJA competition who all you hear about on this board is all negative.... we are not perfect but it sure beats flying a RJ for food stamps. The company seems very interested in our welfare and is trying to make the environment better from year to year.

As a F/O with only spending about 1/2 my per diem and working about 2-3 days of OT a month I will bring in close to 48k this year. Not bad. CSV buys all uniforms including shoes and will replace as they wear free of charge. One week of vacation for new guys so you will have one period of three weeks off. Everyone works 7on/7off so you can plan your life a year in advance. I've flown military, part 121 and now here and it's a good job. If you always look at the negative (NJA guys this is for you) then you will never be happy in aviation, even when you are a 747-400 captain making the big bucks.

We need good pilots... glass half empty guys need not apply please! I like to enjoy my tours by not flying with a nagging pilot the whole week. It helps if you know a CSV guy to recommend you. If not keep updating your resume!

 

[On Your Six]

Thanks for the posting. Can you tell me how your aircraft assignment is determined - by experience or vacancy? What's the likelihood that you could get hired into the right seat of a CJ1? Personally, I'd like to fly one of those - they look like fun.

What's the average upgrade time and do you upgrade to the aircraft you have been assigned as an FO or can you bid any aircraft you want (i.e., from XL FO to CJ1 Captain or to XL Captain)?

Thanks

 

[tailhookah]

To answer:

The pay scale is the same for all aircraft... it doesn't matter what you fly. There probably is a formula as to who goes where (a little) but it comes down to filling vacancies. My class was broken pretty evenly between all three aircraft types (CJ1, Bravo, XL) and so was the experience. Also upgrade will go where you are needed but the company does take into account your type rating... ie if you are an excel guy they will save $$ by keeping you in the xl but it's not a promise. We all get typed in initial training. If you go up one or down one it's differences training. So a guy in the XL can go to the bravo with differences at Flight Safey but going to the CJ from the XL is a whole new type. All in all it comes down to need.... like when I was in the Navy we called it "needs of the navy". Didn't always make sense to us but we don't always have the big picture.... if there's an empty seat and it's your time to upgrade... you're going to that seat.

Hope this helps....

 

[Diesel]

ahhh yes the standard dig at nja. Of course CS are 1/16th the size of NJA so they don't know problems until they get to our size.

Let's see when am i going to upgrade- oh yeah when my senority number gives me the chance.

When is my next pay raise? Oh yeah it's on my aniversary date of hire. What percentage pay increase? Oh yeah it's published and everyone gets the same.

Where shall I live- Who cares as long as I am at my gateway by midnight on my first night. No proving where I live.

Counting perdiem as part of my pay? Nope not going to do it.

Company tries to break your contract? Oh yeah no union. I just file a grievance and get my money or comp days.
NJA pilots might complain but hey we're pilots.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Hey Diesel,

You can rationalize all you want, but CS is a hundred times better to work for than NJA. And it will be even AFTER the "new contract". Sure, you have to stick up for your company, but any way you slice it, CS has NJA beat many times over. And that's the name of THAT tune.

3am ASAPs. Doesn't happen at CS. 14 hour duty days. Rarely. Minimum rest. Just as rarely. Oh, and they don't have to count their per diem to FAR exceed your pay for comparable equipment. So, go back to your lame rationalizations. Or better yet, just shut up.

As far as the digs go...well, I guess the truth hurts.

 

[DO-82 driver]

What are the Domiciles like at CS? I've heard that senior pilots can pretty much fly from where they want and new hires must commute to the domiciles. If this is true is there any hard feeling amongst the pilot force?

 

[fracflyer]

Hey tailhookah and FarginDooshbahg,

You make us CS pilots look like tools by making fun of the NetJet guys. Great if you like your job, but no reason to cut anyone down. The tables can turn in an instant.

Fly safe

 

[G100driver]

As a F/O with only spending about 1/2 my per diem and working about 2-3 days of OT a month I will bring in close to 48k this year. Not bad.

Not very good either

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Hey tailhookah and FarginDooshbahg,

You make us CS pilots look like tools by making fun of the NetJets guys

The only one that can make you look like a tool is yourself. My posts reflect on me and me only. Besides, what do you expect? I'm a Fargin Dooshbahg. At least that's what everyone tells me, so I guess it's true.

 

[Diesel]

you are compairing apples to oranges. The only thing that NJA and CS have in common is they are in the fractional buisness.

When CS becomes the size of NJA then come talk to me. Upgrades were quick at NJA at one time. At one point they were even hiring captains off the street.

At some point though that all ends and then it's back to a couple of years for upgrade.

Apples to oranges

 

[bluepost]

What about attending FSI on your days off and not getting paid for them?

What about when after about year 3 your daily rate is more then $350 a day, so you are making less to work more?

What about your illegal 135 rest stating you are in rest from shut down to your next duty period, no matter how long it is? You have standby for 20 hours and you are available for 14 the min they call you to show.

What about your sick time? Is it paid or not? Depends on how good you are on your knees.

When do you get 2 weeks vacation? Oh...thats right NEVER!

What about your OT pay...there is none

Not trying to rain on anyones parade, but you post here and it is open season. Netjet pilots have it as good or better then any of the other fractionals...but why do they bitch so much? Because THEY CAN and won't be fired or passed over because of it....AND they are not willing to settle for what they and the rest of the fractionals have....twice as much work and half pay!

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

blueballs,


No matter what spin you put on it, CS pilots make twice what you do working less time. Deal with it, d!ckhead.

Your pilots are bailing left and right, at least those that can find ANY other job, and the ones that remain are begging others not to apply in a desperate attempt to force the company into not sticking it to them with the "new contract".

Fat chance. There are thousands of suckers out there waiting to take your pathetic job.

FWIW, I don't work for CS or even in the fractional industry. I just know a sh!t job when I see one. The only one of the fracs that isn't is CS.

 

[bluepost]

Um....no they don't. That brings up a couple more points. CS's first year captains pay is the first year you get upgraded....no matter how long you have been there. So if you have a family, and don't like to extend and get passed over for upgrade for 2 years, you lose all your merit raises and start at captains pay in your 3rd year. So depending on when you upgrade, CS and Netjets BASE payscales merge around year 4 or 5 or 6, and then Netjets pays more. And that is BASE, not counting hourly OT, or free days training at FSI, after midnights etc. But again, I don't know one Netjets pilot that is satisfied with their pay, but all CS guys seem just fine with it.

Also the 401k match at CS is only based on your base salary and not your extended days, and I think the match is pretty low too, but I could be wrong.


I am not saying CS is a bad place, especially for the first 3 years or so. It sounds like a decent place to work with okay pay (again for the first 3 years). But I haven't heard anything about CS that makes me think they have any interest in making it a long term career option. Not that Netjets has that wrapped up either, but what is frustrating is I really think Netjets is on par with the rest, but nobody here is willing to settle for that....while we hear about other guys bragging how good it is at their place, we are fighting to bring up the standards up at Netjets and for everyone in the industry.

Just today an Options guy wished us luck on our contract hoping it will raise the bar. He was nice about it, but we hear that ALL THE TIME. Why are we the only ones out there fighting? I hope everyone else gets 10% more then we do the min we sign a contract (if that ever happens)...I really do, because that will raise the industry pay.

Our mediator has been giving us crap about INDUSTRY average pay. Saying our industry is only fractionals and not NBAA numbers. So here is where everyones poor salaries is making our fight even tougher.

I really mean no disrespect.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

whoaa there fellas...

got one guy braggin about making 48K
got one guy braggin about 2 weeks vacation

stellar.

sounds to me like both your jobs suck.

 

[G100driver]

whoaa there fellas...

got one guy braggin about making 48K
got one guy braggin about 2 weeks vacation

stellar.

sounds to me like both your jobs suck.

LMAO.

It is a sad say in aviation when we get all exited who's job sucks less than who's.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

whoaa there fellas...

got one guy braggin about making 48K
got one guy braggin about 2 weeks vacation

stellar.

An' I'm braggin' 'cause I'm a dooshbahg. So there. What can you say about that?

bluepost..

No disrespect, either. Just whiling the day away waiting for anything good to happen.

 

[tailhookah]

All I meant to do was to post some facts on citation shares for the guys who've been asking questions about CSV... OK so I did give a dig or two to the NJA guys but you guys deserve it and you guys are such an easy target... all you do is complain about your jobs and your company. I'm just trying to be happy about having a job right now that pays better than the regional RJ fleets who are gobbling up the good paying jobs... one thing I've noticed... it's always easy to compare your job to someone elses and think they have it better... next thing you are working at that job and complaining just as much as you did before you got there....

I don't live for this board... it gives me something to do on my "on" days when I'm away from home. I don't live for this negativity like some do.

Oh and just for the record... I never bragged about 48k a year... i said it was not bad for a F/O these days....
As for counting per diem into my pay i have point to make.... show me a professional pilot who spends all of his per diem and I'll show you a pilot who doesn't exist... let's face it... we are all cheap bastards!

I also hope the NJA guys get your big contract... then we may get a bump up in pay and will certainly get a lot of your owners after they cancel the contract with you when you "bump" up their monthly maint. fees and they pull out for breech of contract and come to us...

 

[Turbinehead]

Bluepost where your info comes from

What about attending FSI on your days off and not getting paid for them?

What about when after about year 3 your daily rate is more then $350 a day, so you are making less to work more?

What about your illegal 135 rest stating you are in rest from shut down to your next duty period, no matter how long it is? You have standby for 20 hours and you are available for 14 the min they call you to show.

What about your sick time? Is it paid or not? Depends on how good you are on your knees.

When do you get 2 weeks vacation? Oh...thats right NEVER!

What about your OT pay...there is none

Not trying to rain on anyones parade, but you post here and it is open season. Netjet pilots have it as good or better then any of the other fractionals...but why do they bitch so much? Because THEY CAN and won't be fired or passed over because of it....AND they are not willing to settle for what they and the rest of the fractionals have....twice as much work and half pay!

Bluepost, if you working for Newtjets, where do you get all this info about Citationshares.

It sure does sound like you have an axe to grind against CS. What, did they turn you down for a job there?

T

 

[bluepost]

I was at Netjets before CS started I think, or at least close.


The reason I know so much about CS is that I like to do research to see how we truly compare the other fractionals, airlines, corporate etc. At first glance it appeared the grass was always greener at the other fractionals...or at least it seemed that way because it APPEARED that the other fractional pilots were pretty content. Upon closer inspection I started asking myself WHY....their deal is not much better than ours, if at all.

I don't judge any single pilot....but as a whole NJA has some of the weakest guys around....guys that PFT'd, guys that stayed here during the hiring boom, guys that commuted hundreds or thousands of miles for 27k, etc. Again not bashing anyone individually, guys had families, etc....BUT as a whole there is some real weakness here....but many of these same guys have seen the light, and are now fighting, if these guys can see the light, why can't the rest of the fractionals having a somewhat less weak group overall?

What I (and many other NJA pilots) are trying to accomplish is to point out the fact that using your same pilot skills, you will make probably 30-40% of the $$$ over your career that you would flying for an airline, or about 50-60% of the money you would make flying for a quality corporate department.

WHY? The answer is because NETJETS pilots first accepted those wages over 10 years ago, and then other fractionals came and accepted slightly higher wages, but with less benefits/protections (generally)...and so it went. So today there is about 3500 of us, all doing almost the exact same job, soon to be under the same work rules, flying these airplanes twice as many hours, and into some of the toughest airports in the world, using every inch of performance available to get the job done.

I ask why should we even be CLOSE to being satisfied with what we have? And with all due respect, guys like Turbine Head and clan, who don't even work for the fractionals have some guts bashing us about what they obviously have never experienced first hand. I don't voice my opinion about Vietnam, being black, or over on the airline board....because I have never been, or have pretended to know anything about any of those. I read, I study, but I still have never experienced, and that will forever place me in a corner of outsiders where I belong.

A rising tide lifts all boats, lets lift all our salaries and working conditions, lets leapfrog each other right into the NBAA + 40% numbers where we belong. Post the facts about where we work.....good and bad. Being a fractional pilot may be better then many general jobs out there, but it still sucks compared to most other experienced pilot jobs. Lets do our part to preserve our segment of the profession.

 

[Turbinehead]

Answer the question, Bluepost

I was at Netjets before CS started I think, or at least close.


The reason I know so much about CS is that I like to do research to see how we truly compare the other fractionals, airlines, corporate etc. At first glance it appeared the grass was always greener at the other fractionals...or at least it seemed that way because it APPEARED that the other fractional pilots were pretty content. Upon closer inspection I started asking myself WHY....their deal is not much better than ours, if at all.


A rising tide lifts all boats, lets lift all our salaries and working conditions, lets leapfrog each other right into the NBAA + 40% numbers where we belong. Post the facts about where we work.....good and bad. Being a fractional pilot may be better then many general jobs out there, but it still sucks compared to most other experienced pilot jobs. Lets do our part to preserve our segment of the profession.

Just tell us the source of your "RESEARCH." This will lend some credibility to your otherwise arrogant and inflamatory remarks about CS Vector.