Citation Shares question

[DBCOOPER]

English-
Yea, yea, I know. I have a couple friends there at CS. I pick their brains, as I do with everyone I know around the industry. This website can sometimes be good to learn little tidbits that I didn't know before, especially about fractionals. (I never thought I would remotely think about going that route, therefore I'm not as familiar as I am with 121 ops.)

BTW, talking to pilots at certain companies doesn't always paint the actual picture either. There are way too many kool-aid drinkers out there, as you know.

 

[bravodude]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

 

[Guitar Guy]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

That is such a tough consideration. It would be wonderful if there was some objective, 100% accurate method to determine who should be a PIC. But there's not and like you say, seniority-based vs. company-determined systems have pro's and con's. I will say that at my last airline I did see several instances where someone who shouldn't have been a captain did NOT pass the Upgrade process. So sometimes the seniority system, for all its flaws, does work.

 

[Turbinehead]

DBCooper, and others looking for honest information about Citationshares;

In the very recent past, employees, and even their families, have been harassed for posting accurate info on this website about CS.

Do tell, do tell.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

It IS fair, when your number is up, to be given the opportunity to attend upgrading training. Weather or not you pass the checkride is up to you, but seniority is the only fair way to give pilots their chance to go to upgrade training. If a pilot in upgrade training happens to be a total idiot, who cares. Sucessful upgrades are performance based; If that pilot who you think is an idiot happens to have the wherewithal to pass the oral and perform in the simulator, then that idiot has every right to be a captain. If a newly upgraded idiot captain gets out on the line and FO's start making complaints about him or his descision making abilities, then more than likely that captain will be dealt with by management and possibly retrained or removed from the seat. But at least he got his chance to attend upgrade, which is the fair thing to do.

I will say that at my last airline I did see several instances where someone who shouldn't have been a captain did NOT pass the Upgrade process.

I have seen that too. It all comes out in the wash. If he/she is truly an idiot with bad descion making/piloting skills, he/she will more than likely not pass upgrade, but still he/she was given the opportunity based on seniority.

I'm confident enough in my abilities that it wouldn't bother me if I happened to be paired up with the aforementioned "idiot captain" for a month. However, I personally wouldnt get along well with a captain that upgraded based on merit because he was a "yes man" brownnoser who never had enough backbone to stand up to the company when they try to force you to stay an extra 2 days.

 

[Publishers]

What it boils down to are there are people who feel better with the clump process and highly structured rules in a system that is for the most part arbitrary.

The others are more independent, singlular, and not really looking for a crowed to be a part of. They believe if they work harder and do a better job, they will be rewarded.

The first think anything that the second gets is because he kisses ass an is a company guy regardless of how good of a job he does. The second group thinks the first needs a nanny or someone else to think and speak for them.

You can see it on every thread on these boards. If you disagree you are a management puke for we all need protected from these greedy golden parachute seeking managers.

We are unhappy so let's take the time to make those that are happy equally unhappy with their lives.

 

[Hawkered]

I actually like that post Publishers! Now that's more like it man!!

So true.

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah, Publishers is right.

I think if your wife socializes with the DO's wife... By dog you deserve that upgrade ahead of everyone else who is senior to you.

If you GOLF with the VP of Operations every other Saturday... shouldn't you get that Check Airman's job so you can work all your days off collecting extended days pay while sitting at home on your scheduled work days?

They don't call it the A-TEAM for nothing.

 

[Publishers]

Well to take the other side of that-- just what is so great about seniority. What exactly does that mean, you were hired one minute before the next guy and so you should qualify ahead of them.

Just where is it written in the great big book that you deserve anything because you were on the property longer. Let's see the interview,

Heh Bob, why do you think you deserve the upgrade to Boeing Big Aircraft over Jim here. Oh you were the first in the door when we hired those 30 guys two years ago. Now that is a good reason why I should put you in charge of my new $35.0m Big Plane.

 

[transpac]

Heh Bob, why do you think you deserve the upgrade to Boeing Big Aircraft over Jim here. Oh you were the first in the door when we hired those 30 guys two years ago. Now that is a good reason why I should put you in charge of my new $35.0m Big Plane.

No one should ever be upgraded just because of seniority. But, its about the only fair way to determine who gets the first crack at demonstrating his or her fitness for an upgrade.