Citation Shares question

[DBCOOPER]

English-
Yea, yea, I know. I have a couple friends there at CS. I pick their brains, as I do with everyone I know around the industry. This website can sometimes be good to learn little tidbits that I didn't know before, especially about fractionals. (I never thought I would remotely think about going that route, therefore I'm not as familiar as I am with 121 ops.)

BTW, talking to pilots at certain companies doesn't always paint the actual picture either. There are way too many kool-aid drinkers out there, as you know.

 

[bravodude]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

 

[Guitar Guy]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

That is such a tough consideration. It would be wonderful if there was some objective, 100% accurate method to determine who should be a PIC. But there's not and like you say, seniority-based vs. company-determined systems have pro's and con's. I will say that at my last airline I did see several instances where someone who shouldn't have been a captain did NOT pass the Upgrade process. So sometimes the seniority system, for all its flaws, does work.

 

[Turbinehead]

DBCooper, and others looking for honest information about Citationshares;

In the very recent past, employees, and even their families, have been harassed for posting accurate info on this website about CS.

Do tell, do tell.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

It IS fair, when your number is up, to be given the opportunity to attend upgrading training. Weather or not you pass the checkride is up to you, but seniority is the only fair way to give pilots their chance to go to upgrade training. If a pilot in upgrade training happens to be a total idiot, who cares. Sucessful upgrades are performance based; If that pilot who you think is an idiot happens to have the wherewithal to pass the oral and perform in the simulator, then that idiot has every right to be a captain. If a newly upgraded idiot captain gets out on the line and FO's start making complaints about him or his descision making abilities, then more than likely that captain will be dealt with by management and possibly retrained or removed from the seat. But at least he got his chance to attend upgrade, which is the fair thing to do.

I will say that at my last airline I did see several instances where someone who shouldn't have been a captain did NOT pass the Upgrade process.

I have seen that too. It all comes out in the wash. If he/she is truly an idiot with bad descion making/piloting skills, he/she will more than likely not pass upgrade, but still he/she was given the opportunity based on seniority.

I'm confident enough in my abilities that it wouldn't bother me if I happened to be paired up with the aforementioned "idiot captain" for a month. However, I personally wouldnt get along well with a captain that upgraded based on merit because he was a "yes man" brownnoser who never had enough backbone to stand up to the company when they try to force you to stay an extra 2 days.

 

[Publishers]

What it boils down to are there are people who feel better with the clump process and highly structured rules in a system that is for the most part arbitrary.

The others are more independent, singlular, and not really looking for a crowed to be a part of. They believe if they work harder and do a better job, they will be rewarded.

The first think anything that the second gets is because he kisses ass an is a company guy regardless of how good of a job he does. The second group thinks the first needs a nanny or someone else to think and speak for them.

You can see it on every thread on these boards. If you disagree you are a management puke for we all need protected from these greedy golden parachute seeking managers.

We are unhappy so let's take the time to make those that are happy equally unhappy with their lives.

 

[Hawkered]

I actually like that post Publishers! Now that's more like it man!!

So true.

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah, Publishers is right.

I think if your wife socializes with the DO's wife... By dog you deserve that upgrade ahead of everyone else who is senior to you.

If you GOLF with the VP of Operations every other Saturday... shouldn't you get that Check Airman's job so you can work all your days off collecting extended days pay while sitting at home on your scheduled work days?

They don't call it the A-TEAM for nothing.

 

[Publishers]

Well to take the other side of that-- just what is so great about seniority. What exactly does that mean, you were hired one minute before the next guy and so you should qualify ahead of them.

Just where is it written in the great big book that you deserve anything because you were on the property longer. Let's see the interview,

Heh Bob, why do you think you deserve the upgrade to Boeing Big Aircraft over Jim here. Oh you were the first in the door when we hired those 30 guys two years ago. Now that is a good reason why I should put you in charge of my new $35.0m Big Plane.

 

[transpac]

Heh Bob, why do you think you deserve the upgrade to Boeing Big Aircraft over Jim here. Oh you were the first in the door when we hired those 30 guys two years ago. Now that is a good reason why I should put you in charge of my new $35.0m Big Plane.

No one should ever be upgraded just because of seniority. But, its about the only fair way to determine who gets the first crack at demonstrating his or her fitness for an upgrade.

 

[Turbinehead]

More hearsay

I've talked with a few CS crews on the road and it seems the life is the same as everyone else. A couple minuses that seems to hurt their morale:

1) Non-seniority based upgrades means everyone has to play the politics game. Upgrades have more to do with kissing butt than performance.

2) Tips are not reimbursed.

3) If you fly through a meal and get crew catering your per diem is docked for it.

4) Training events come out of Your time, not the companies.

5) They don't seem to like the uniform jackets. (might have just been those two crews though)

6) Company is stickler about the domicile thing.

Things they like:

1) Pay is pretty good.

2) 7 and 7 is very nice (i don't think anyone starts their tours on a weekend).

3) Equipment.

Negatives I heard:

1. Uniforms look like hotel staff and i dunno who taylors them but they always look 2 sizes too big. The fly is where the tie belongs and the female type pilots gotta wear that scarf makes em look like they had a laryngectomy.

2. They dont pay ya for being out sick unless you on the A team.

3. Methinks they only hire WASPs and hottie girls.

Good stuff:

1. In indoc they take you out boozin

2. Pay is good unless you get out the calculator and realize it not so good, especially for FO's who do all the work, but get half the pay. Not right. They should make at least 50K / year for what they do.

3. Citations break down a lot.

4. You be out on ramp in miami middle of summer seeing them cs crews with their suit jackets on all buttoned up. whats that about.

5. Every one of their female type pilots is a certifiable hottie.

 

[Publishers]

Why is that the only fair way Transpac,, perhaps birthdays, high school graduation days. We can come up with a wide variety of arbitrary numbering systems to keep the judgement out of it.

Than again, is it not the judgement that makes management managers.

Now this arguement is just for debates sake but I once ran an operation and the chairman selected an indivdual to be upgraded and typed ahead of some others who had more "seniority". There was no question that this individual was bright, qualified, and a go getter.

The second fact was that, for all intent and purposed, the chairman was a customer of the flight department and had expressed who he thought should be one of the people flying him.

My question to you is it less right that he picked that individual.. It was his plane and his operation even though I ran it. Was it unfair that he picked me 7 years before to be the youngest branch manager they ever had in the company when there were others with more seniority and experience. Was it less fair then that when I performed exceptionally well that I was selected as the youngest general manager and then VP etc.

The point is that he was in fact where he was to make decisions on who could perform and who he wanted to perform to achieve the goals and objectives that he set for the company. did the other sales personnel rally around and raise hell because someone with less seniority had been selected-- or gm's or VP's.

Business and life are competitive, and, neither are fair. Doing things by seniority is just as unfair as not. It is just as artifical as any other form.

 

[gunfyter]

Seniority is NOT arbitrary. Its hard and fast and everyone knows and understands the rules. When its my time to upgrade by seniority, I am not beholding to anyone.

If your position is determined by the good graces of being handpicked by some manager... its difficult to say NO to that individual.

"Oh can you come in and do this trip. I know its only been 9 hrs of rest but you feel OK don't you?'

... " I know you been on duty 13 hrs now but could you reposition the plane back to HomePlate tonight? We need it for a trip. Its part 91 so you don't have to worry about FAA duty limits."

"You gonna write that squawk up there at Sun Valley or wait till you get to Denver?"

 

[Texasskicker]

Comparing cows to sheep

Now this arguement is just for debates sake but I once ran an operation and the chairman selected an indivdual to be upgraded and typed ahead of some others who had more "seniority". There was no question that this individual was bright, qualified, and a go getter.

Business and life are competitive, and, neither are fair. Doing things by seniority is just as unfair as not. It is just as artifical as any other form.

Publisher(s):

How many of you are there? Anyways...to my point.

How many pilots did yall have in your operation. Netjets has couple of thousand, and I dont know how many C has but probably a couple of hundred. How does management in these companies get to know the pilots as well as you or your principal may have known this individual who got hand picked to move up ahead of others? You cannot operate a huge flight operation like a fractional that way and be fair, unless you have some kind of high tech system that, lets face it, aint been invented yet.

I think your posts have been top notch excellent and to the point on this seniority thing.

By the way, who do you publish for, New York Times or somethin, cause your spellin and grammar is pretty bad. I know that sounds funny comin from me, a Texas backward azz country boy who dosen't have a good command of the english language enough to be publishin stuff, but your posts are hard to read with all the wacky mechanics.

Anyway, keep it up Pub. Good posts.

 

[transpac]

Why is that the only fair way Transpac,, perhaps birthdays, high school graduation days. We can come up with a wide variety of arbitrary numbering systems to keep the judgement out of it.

I don't doubt that you were the youngest, brightest, and best executive ever. However, you seem to have forgotten that being arbitrary is not exactly the same as being fair.

 

[furlough-boy]

I don't doubt that you were the youngest, brightest, and best executive ever. However, you seem to have forgotten that being arbitrary is not exactly the same as being fair.

You seem to have forgotten that life is not fair.

 

[Publishers]

To answer Texas, when I write an article or story, it goes through a bunch of re-writes and then an editor to correct all my mistakes. When I do television, we have tape and editors. I used to have a program that would spell check writing like this but a new computer and I lost the software.

I only had about 20 pilots in one operation before the airlines but had over 600 total employees reporting to me.

I was not really arguing the senority issue as much as trying to make the point that it is not an end all great thing either. In the end, it is just a rule and system, no better than any other.

Transpac -- I am not claiming to be the brightest etc, just the guy that put up the best numbers in that situation.