Citation Shares question

[otis]

Does Citation Shares ever hire into the left seat or is it strictly the right seat?

How long does it take to upgrade?

Thanks,
Otis

 

[bravodude]

they used to hire into the left seat but not anymore evrybody goes to the right seat first. upgrades are based on merrit.

 

[On Your Six]

they used to hire into the left seat but not anymore evrybody goes to the right seat first. upgrades are based on merrit.

Hey Bravodude,

How long before you can change your name to Sovereigndude? Pretty cool airplanes. I would expect that it is bidding pretty senior (by merit of course). Could a CJ1 Captain move up to a Sovereign based on merit or is there more of a linear promotion - from CJ1 to Bravo/Excel to Sovereign? How many do you expect to have on the property within the next few months. And, lastly, any word on how nice the Sovereign is to fly from your line buddies?

 

[bravodude]

actually i should have changed it to excelldude but oh well we dont really bid for airplanes if someone wants to move into another airplane they just ask their pm and then when it opens up they go. yes you could go from a cj to a soveign. personally i love the xl and dont want to leave it. the legs are to long in a soverign dont want to do the walk of shame. i think we should have around 4-5 next year unless more delivery positions open up. they guys that are flying it now love it.

 

[Diesel]

Do you send a bottle or a case of booze to move from the cj to the soverign?

I'm sure the "handpicked" pilots flying the soverign are HPN based

 

[Texasskicker]

Why do yall put up with it

Stink bug said in another thread: "What you heard is essentially correct. Though I don't know if the fellows you talked to mentioned that the once-per-year 11-day tour is followed by 10 days off. We do conduct our three-day recurrent on our weeks off. So there's two more tours where you could potentially be gone for 10 days. Yes, training on off weeks is a sore spot with most of the pilots. Although I'd like to see it change, it really doesn't bother me much personally...our total days off per year still exceeds that of the other fractionals (except perhaps the top 50% of Netjets guys, who are 7/7 and train during their on weeks)"

I moved it over here cause nobody's answerin my question over there.

My question to yall CS airman is why do you put up with em messin with your schedule like that?

Are you forced to do overtime? What happens to your merit based upgrade if you dont wanna do overtime?

 

[Stinkbug]

Texasskicker,

Maybe noone's aswering the question because we don't feel it's worth the bother...you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Anyone who's signed on in the last year already knows the policy when they're hired, so they have no right to complain. Anyone who's been here longer than that probably complains...but they understand the intent of the schedule swap is to allow everyone to have the holidays off every other year. To be honest I hear very little grumbling about the schedule around here.

No one forces you to work overtime. Yes, you'll still upgrade if you don't work overtime. And yes, someone who does work overtime may upgrade before you.

Stinkbug

 

[AA717driver]

Repeat after me... "If you don't like it, don't go to work there."

Tex--Are you a NetJetter trying to export warm fuzzies? TC

 

[Flying Illini]

No one forces you to work overtime. Yes, you'll still upgrade if you don't work overtime. And yes, someone who does work overtime may upgrade before you.

Just like working in an office. If you put in the extra hours and work harder than the next guy, you're gonna get that promotion before "Mr. status quo" does.

 

[Diesel]

So your rewarding people to fly to the edge of the earth and tired when another pilot says, "nope I'm done this is unsafe."

That could lead to potential problems.

Our company not our union won't even pay us past 14hrs because they don't want to entice pilots to keep flying to earn extra bling bling.

The union didn't come up with the rule the company did.

 

[Stinkbug]

So your rewarding people to fly to the edge of the earth and tired when another pilot says, "nope I'm done this is unsafe."

Diesel,
I'm getting tired and I'm not sure why I'm responding to you, but this is the last time. You're talking about something completely different than I am when I refer to overtime. An overtime day, more often than not, is a day before your regular tour starts, which the company uses to position you for the next day's trip, usually by airline. If you work an overtime day at the end of your regular tour you may fly a trip or two. It's exclusively voluntary either way. It provides the company with flexibility in staffing airplanes when large numbers of pilots are coming off tour (Mondays and Wednesdays). I have never been asked to fly when I was tired. In fact, I don't find that I work all that hard here at all.

We have the same 10 hour rest requirement that you have at NetJets. Unlike you at NetJets, we rarely work a 14-hour day. That may change as our airplane deliveries and pilot hiring slows down...who knows? For now all I can say is it's a terrific job and I don't understand why you insist on trying to expose it for what it isn't.

 

[Diesel]

Hey trust me nobody has more problems than NJ. I totally admit that.

I've got quite a few friends at CS and we've all discussed the "preferred pilots" at CS. NJ has them too so don't feel bad.

You said earlier, "No one forces you to work overtime. Yes, you'll still upgrade if you don't work overtime. And yes, someone who does work overtime may upgrade before you."

So if you want to upgrade you have to work longer hours than someone else? 7 days is a long time on the road. Why does a guy with a family and kids at home have to stay out longer just to make more money? He does his job very well and bends over backwards during his 7 days on. Now the company want's an 8th day from him? If he doesn't give it to him he might not upgrade before some single guy with no family?

A seniority list doesn't give you the right to make capatain. It gives you the oportunity. Your passing is up to you.

 

[tailhookah]

blah blah

Diesel.... don't you have enough to gripe about w/ your current employer? Why don't you just go blow.... leave our company to those who like it.... us. Keep your views and your constant complaining to yourself and talk to yourself in the mirror.... maybe then someone will listen and care about your stupid views and rants about a system you don't work for or under and let those who have legitimate questions and concerns about our fine company have the space on this board.... in other words shut up!

hugs/kisses
tail

 

[bravodude]

heres the deal we are happy here they are not so decide to bother us

 

[DBCOOPER]

I must say I came to this site to find some info on CS, and I was surprised to see the childish bickering going on with you guys. It's time to grow up folks....you sound like my sisters kids for Gods sake.

If there are any mature CS pilots on here, maybe you can take the time to answer a few questions I have regarding your company.

1) First year pay I hear is around $45,000 w/ per diem/bonuses. Correct??
2) Everyone is 7 on 7 off from day 1?
3) Upgrade roughly one year for a new hire? It sounds to me like you don't upgrade by seniority at CS from what I've read above, is this actually true?
4) What does a Captain top out at roughly, NOT including overtime.
5) What's the biggest drawback to flying at CS?

I appreciate any answers that a CS pilot here could provide.
Thanks.......

 

[650 driver]

I found CS not a very user freindly company from just my discussions with them.
Not every pilot lives close to one of the gateways, which requires a move with no financial assistance.
I personnally live in a city with major airlne service and could not justify a move just to start the 7 day tour on the airlines from one of there gateways.


650

 

[captboy2001]

how long does it usually take to hear from them...just sent them a resume? what kind of time r they looking for. i have 4700 tot 3100 in turbo prop and 25oo 121 pic....

 

[WrknStff]

Minuses I've heard.

I've talked with a few CS crews on the road and it seems the life is the same as everyone else. A couple minuses that seems to hurt their morale:

1) Non-seniority based upgrades means everyone has to play the politics game. Upgrades have more to do with kissing butt than performance.

2) Tips are not reimbursed.

3) If you fly through a meal and get crew catering your per diem is docked for it.

4) Training events come out of Your time, not the companies.

5) They don't seem to like the uniform jackets. (might have just been those two crews though)

6) Company is stickler about the domicile thing.

Things they like:

1) Pay is pretty good.

2) 7 and 7 is very nice (i don't think anyone starts their tours on a weekend).

3) Equipment.

 

[English]

DBCooper, and others looking for honest information about Citationshares;

As you know there is the good and bad about every company out there. Even the most highly regarded companies might have a reason or two why someone in the world might not want to work for them. As pilots, it's important for us to determine what the truth is about any particular company, so that we can decide what we can live with, and what we can't. The problem is, certain companies, such as CS, cannot stand having anything negative posted about them on public websites, such as this one.

I think you will get more accurate information about the company by meeting pilots on the road and getting their thoughts. CS pilots will not post the bad info here on flightinfo.com. In the very recent past, employees, and even their families, have been harassed for posting accurate info on this website about CS. If you want to know the truth about the company, just ask a pilot on the road. You will get a completely different picture of the company when you go this route, rather than reading the posts here. All in all I think CS is a great company, but not everyone is going to be willing to put up with some of their policies. If you want to have an accurate picture, go talk to some crews on the road.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

they used to hire into the left seat but not anymore evrybody goes to the right seat first. upgrades are based on merrit.

How fair is it to upgrade solely on merit? So basically you have to be a "company man" and not stand up for yourself when the company fuks you over.

A seniority list doesn't give you the right to make capatain. It gives you the oportunity. Your passing is up to you.

I agree, when a pilot's number comes up for upgrade, that does not immediately make that pilot an automatic captain, however, his/her seniority number should ensure that pilot his/her fair turn, regardless of managements personal feelings towards that pilot. For example, just because a pilot happens to be a "family man" and would rather be with their kids as opposed to flying 2 extra days for the company should not mean that he gets passed for upgrade when it's his turn. Seniority is the ONLY fair way to upgrade. Otherwise, most of the suckups upgrading will be pu$$ies who allow the company to run all over them and can't make descisions for themselves.

 

[DBCOOPER]

English-
Yea, yea, I know. I have a couple friends there at CS. I pick their brains, as I do with everyone I know around the industry. This website can sometimes be good to learn little tidbits that I didn't know before, especially about fractionals. (I never thought I would remotely think about going that route, therefore I'm not as familiar as I am with 121 ops.)

BTW, talking to pilots at certain companies doesn't always paint the actual picture either. There are way too many kool-aid drinkers out there, as you know.

 

[bravodude]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

 

[Guitar Guy]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

That is such a tough consideration. It would be wonderful if there was some objective, 100% accurate method to determine who should be a PIC. But there's not and like you say, seniority-based vs. company-determined systems have pro's and con's. I will say that at my last airline I did see several instances where someone who shouldn't have been a captain did NOT pass the Upgrade process. So sometimes the seniority system, for all its flaws, does work.

 

[Turbinehead]

DBCooper, and others looking for honest information about Citationshares;

In the very recent past, employees, and even their families, have been harassed for posting accurate info on this website about CS.

Do tell, do tell.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

how fair is it to upgrade just because your number is up. you maybee a total idiot but if you pass a check ride then you are a capt. each one has its good and bad points.

It IS fair, when your number is up, to be given the opportunity to attend upgrading training. Weather or not you pass the checkride is up to you, but seniority is the only fair way to give pilots their chance to go to upgrade training. If a pilot in upgrade training happens to be a total idiot, who cares. Sucessful upgrades are performance based; If that pilot who you think is an idiot happens to have the wherewithal to pass the oral and perform in the simulator, then that idiot has every right to be a captain. If a newly upgraded idiot captain gets out on the line and FO's start making complaints about him or his descision making abilities, then more than likely that captain will be dealt with by management and possibly retrained or removed from the seat. But at least he got his chance to attend upgrade, which is the fair thing to do.

I will say that at my last airline I did see several instances where someone who shouldn't have been a captain did NOT pass the Upgrade process.

I have seen that too. It all comes out in the wash. If he/she is truly an idiot with bad descion making/piloting skills, he/she will more than likely not pass upgrade, but still he/she was given the opportunity based on seniority.

I'm confident enough in my abilities that it wouldn't bother me if I happened to be paired up with the aforementioned "idiot captain" for a month. However, I personally wouldnt get along well with a captain that upgraded based on merit because he was a "yes man" brownnoser who never had enough backbone to stand up to the company when they try to force you to stay an extra 2 days.

 

[Publishers]

What it boils down to are there are people who feel better with the clump process and highly structured rules in a system that is for the most part arbitrary.

The others are more independent, singlular, and not really looking for a crowed to be a part of. They believe if they work harder and do a better job, they will be rewarded.

The first think anything that the second gets is because he kisses ass an is a company guy regardless of how good of a job he does. The second group thinks the first needs a nanny or someone else to think and speak for them.

You can see it on every thread on these boards. If you disagree you are a management puke for we all need protected from these greedy golden parachute seeking managers.

We are unhappy so let's take the time to make those that are happy equally unhappy with their lives.

 

[Hawkered]

I actually like that post Publishers! Now that's more like it man!!

So true.

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah, Publishers is right.

I think if your wife socializes with the DO's wife... By dog you deserve that upgrade ahead of everyone else who is senior to you.

If you GOLF with the VP of Operations every other Saturday... shouldn't you get that Check Airman's job so you can work all your days off collecting extended days pay while sitting at home on your scheduled work days?

They don't call it the A-TEAM for nothing.

 

[Publishers]

Well to take the other side of that-- just what is so great about seniority. What exactly does that mean, you were hired one minute before the next guy and so you should qualify ahead of them.

Just where is it written in the great big book that you deserve anything because you were on the property longer. Let's see the interview,

Heh Bob, why do you think you deserve the upgrade to Boeing Big Aircraft over Jim here. Oh you were the first in the door when we hired those 30 guys two years ago. Now that is a good reason why I should put you in charge of my new $35.0m Big Plane.

 

[transpac]

Heh Bob, why do you think you deserve the upgrade to Boeing Big Aircraft over Jim here. Oh you were the first in the door when we hired those 30 guys two years ago. Now that is a good reason why I should put you in charge of my new $35.0m Big Plane.

No one should ever be upgraded just because of seniority. But, its about the only fair way to determine who gets the first crack at demonstrating his or her fitness for an upgrade.