Citation Shares Info???

[miles otoole]

Humprey, sorry I cant lower myself to work for Cshares, hate to break this to you, but you are in a dying industry.
My experience is with real flight departments and with owners that hire their own pilots, not Frac clones.
Most corporate jet owners like to know whos flying them, with the fracs, they dont have a clue whos in the cockpit.
Go enjoy the hotel rooms 15-16 days a month...I do have a life.
Like I said before keep screwing up, it helps the real Corp. pilots.

650

Hate to break this to you, but many corporate flight departments are dying on the vine. Many simply can't justify the overhead. Thank Sarbanes-Oxley for that. The fracs are becoming more and more efficient, are flying newer equipment, have better trained, higher time pilots, and have much more flexibility. Good luck in your career in real estate.

 

[HMR]

CS seems like a good choice if you want to go the Frac route. But C'mon...

The fracs are becoming more and more efficient

With 50% empty legs it would be hard to get any less efficient.

are flying newer equipment

i.e. The Ultra's I see with umpteen-thousand hours on them? Or the brand new stuff that will soon have umpteen-thousand hours?

have better trained, higher time pilots

"Higher time"? Than me? Probably. "Better trained"? Hmmm...Have you been to one of our department's PT91 recurrents? They make my old 135 training look like Romper Room.

and have much more flexibility.

N/A

Good luck in your career in real estate.

It does seem like a lot of the corp. guys around here are getting into real estate with all the time off.

The Frac guys that I know are good pilots and good people. They work hard and deserve A LOT better pay/QOL. I just don't think those things are part of the Frac business model. FWIW-the CS guys really do seem to be the happiest of the bunch that I meet on the road. Oh... And the best dressed.

 

[Texasskicker]

Aren't we all dying, really?

Humprey, sorry I cant lower myself to work for Cshares, hate to break this to you, but you are in a dying industry.

650

650 driver, you are flying a dyin' airplane cause they dont make em anymore.

Dying industry, you just do not understand the economics, or are in denial. Rich Johnny can fly fractional for a lot less money then if he plunks down the coin for his own jet. When his own jet breaks, he's back flyin charter.

With charter, you really dont know who is up front.

With corporate flyin, lets be honest. YOu got Jimmy bob and Billy joe up front who are buddies, flyin their one and only jet, no standardization, no oversight. OR maybe you got two jets, different equipment, and you got Homie G doin the maintenance, been to school on the ford tempo once.

You cannot beat frax for cost, quality of product, and crew experience. Crews are trained to 135 standards, checked and double checked by Check Airman during the 6 months, drug tested, and are FLYING probably 4 - 5 times as much as the typical corporate pilot per year. There's no substitude for experience-especially recency.

In your fatalistic rant, 650, you forgot to mention that we're gonna run outta jet fuel some day, and well all be out of a job! Global warming from jet exhaust is gonna heat up the earth so much that we wont need jets anymore, cause nobodys gonna be left.

In the meantime, for those fortunate enough to own private jet travel, fractional is now and for the forseeable future shall be the best way to go. Choices, flexibility, freedom, and they dont have to fight the boss or the next guy up on the food chain for a seat in the jet. Heck, they can even use it to go on vacation without wall street findin out somehow.

Keep it most real.

Tex.

 

[Dep676]

Hate to break this to you, but many corporate flight departments are dying on the vine. Many simply can't justify the overhead. Thank Sarbanes-Oxley for that. The fracs are becoming more and more efficient, are flying newer equipment, have better trained, higher time pilots, and have much more flexibility. Good luck in your career in real estate.

You obviously haven't seen one of our ragged out Hawkers at Options? Newer, the newest thing I have been on in a while was a 2001. Although the paint looked like a freighter. I am in the new Hawkers too. Just look at one of our pre-owned stuff. Higher time pilots? Where did you get that info? What is higher time to you?

 

[Tommy Boy]

Exactly! And the fractionals ARE on their way down. Owners are getting tired of different planes showing up, when they show up. Management are getting tired of pilots wanting to sleep and eat instead of fly 24hrs straight. And guess what... the economy is picking up again so they don't have their pick of pilots willing to take all the krap just to get a job. And the investors are tired of handing out more cash and getting nothing in return.

And as for crew experience? I fly with a million bozo's and I fly with a million good people too, but the fact is the pilots at the fracs are the same as the pilots everywhere else. We have guys who flew all the heavies for all the airlines out there, we have guys who sat right seat in a king air 90 for 6 months then came here, we have guys who flew in all the branches of the military, we have freight dogs, we have regional pilots, we have corporate pilots and we even have guys who just instructed. That sounds like every company I have ever worked for.

Just wait about another year or two and see what rolls out. There is much going on behind the sceeeeeens. NJ management is running scared because their pilots are finally getting a strong Union. And Raytheon knows their pilots aren't far behind. And this time it will pass.... A.S.A.P.

CS are the happiest? I know people over there and I will listen to them. They are no happier than anyone else. Also give them a couple of years till their wigs decides they want to improve profits/cut costs etc etc etc.

If you need a job, then the fracs are a place to keep flying and pay a couple of the bills till you get a good job. If you want to go somewhere and build pic time, forget it unless you want to wait for the attrition to upgrade. If you want to go somewhere you can make some money... forget it.

My suggestion would be to go to one of the good freighters like USA Jet. You will make decent money, upgrade fairly fast and get real quality time. The best pilots I fly with are the old freight dogs. But I have a slightly slanted point of view.

 

[650 driver]

IF all the 91 operations are going away, how on earth are those upset Netjet and other frac pilots going to get their wages up?
That seems to be the only crutch they have for changes, but according to your past posts Jimmy and Billy dont know how to return the form.
Oh and by the way, 91 opts do have standardization and are FSI or Simuflite trained, and we dont ground a aircraft for a broken overhead bulb in the cabin.
We dont fly around most of the time empty. The fracs are just large 135 operators, with new airplanes with high time airframes that decrease their value more quickly.
I bet the frac owners that renew after 5 years are a small percentage. At least with the same company.
Sorry you guys are in a sorry business model with built in problems.

650

 

[Diesel]

650 i really enjoy how you come on here and bitch about our job except you've never been in our job.

how many corporate flight departments closed over the last 3-4 years.

How many fractionals closed over the last 3-4 years.

Why don't you look up the "churn" of fractional owners coming up on their 5 year commitment. it's actually a very low percentage. But you wouldn't care in percentages just making wild assumptions in a buisness you know nothing about.

Enjoy your old plane that spends more time in a service center than any other plane on the line.

 

[Dep676]

Enjoy your old plane that spends more time in a service center than any other plane on the line.

Hey you must be talking about us at Options with that comment too.

 

[650 driver]

True Deisel, I cant lower myself to do the frac thing.
I have only been flying corporate longer than you guys could even spell Citation.
Like I said before, how are you guys going to make $150 grand when all the operators are folding up according to your posts?
Who says I fly the 650?
Go back to your hotel room or go hang out at the fbo at 0400 and bitch about your industry.

650

 

[Diesel]

actually i'm hanging out at home with the wife and dog.

Oh and i've got 7 days off straight in a row. You only see that in your dreams. (not flying the day and considering it your day off is not the same thing)

 

[Jolimon]

It is amazing to read all this. It is a fact, pilots live to complain. All the fractionals are pretty decent and have their pro's and con's, it beats bagging groceries like most of our airline counterparts.

 

[Turbinehead]

See, if you had just used the *&^%$ search function

This is what happens when someone asks for info about a company. Turns into a whiner fest.

My advice:

Stay away from the company infected with the pus of union mentality. It infects the organism, turns it colors and makes it really smelly. Some parts get cut off, but its gonna die a slow painful stinky smelly death. Sooner or later it shrivels up and dies. Why because the negativity is the pus that eats away until all ya got is the rotten carcas then the ants and vultures move in.

At least companys like CS are built from the ground up to be progressive. They take care of their people and the people dont want a union.

No company makes you fly 24 hours straight Tommy boy. Stop exaggerating, makes you look like a silly girlie man. You Tommy Boy are one of those people feels the union is THE ANSWER. Strong union is gonna make it all better. Good luck. I think the company is doomed because it is built around the union / management confrontational model. That makes people unhappy cause you know what? You are not on the same team, its always playin one against the other. Pilots and Management are never gonna be happy with each other. Theres always gonna be the battle and its no way to live and work under those conditions.

 

[Dep676]

At least companys like CS are built from the ground up to be progressive. They take care of their people and the people dont want a union.

Not yet anyway. That used to be the thought at Options too. The kool-aid drinkers finally come around too.

 

[Diesel]

When CS has been around as long as netjets and gets to the size of netjets they will understand. We've allready been through the crap they are about to go through.

 

[HMR]

actually i'm hanging out at home with the wife and dog.

Oh and i've got 7 days off straight in a row. You only see that in your dreams. (not flying the day and considering it your day off is not the same thing)

When CS has been around as long as netjets and gets to the size of netjets they will understand. We've allready been through the crap they are about to go through.

Soooo... are you saying NJ is good or bad?

 

[Diesel]

I like it here. I couldn't imagine surviving on FO pay though. This place is soooo close to being a great place. I've had other job offers with better pay but I like the schedule and the job security.

When CS gets to be this size and hass to deal with the same issues then you are comparing apples to apples. Perfect example is some pilots at CS can live where they want. New hires must live within 90 miles. Eventually there will be more newhires than oldtimers and that stuff will change.

That was one of my main reasons for voting no on our TA. It split the pilot group into the have and have nots. No thanks. Eventually the have nots will out number the Have's and we're back to square one.

 

[Tommy Boy]

This is what happens when someone asks for info about a company. Turns into a whiner fest.



No company makes you fly 24 hours straight Tommy boy. Stop exaggerating, makes you look like a silly girlie man. You Tommy Boy are one of those people feels the union is THE ANSWER. Strong union is gonna make it all better. Good luck. I think the company is doomed because it is built around the union / management confrontational model. That makes people unhappy cause you know what? You are not on the same team, its always playin one against the other. Pilots and Management are never gonna be happy with each other. Theres always gonna be the battle and its no way to live and work under those conditions.

Oh PLEASE!!!! Management has had EVERY opportunity to keep things friendly and cordial. They have gone OUT OF their way to make it miserable here.

You say there is always strife... yes, but it can be managed. That is why we went soooo long WITHOUT any union. We didn't want one, but then the evil dr raytheon came into the picture and made it perfectly clear from day one how they feel about their employees. Its not just the flight department.... its their engineers, their mechanics, their fbo people... they treat people like dirt. They are a typical defense contractor company.

Do I think a union is "the answer"? Well no way, but with the way this team operates a union is the only way you can stand up for yourself to even keep a decent work environment.

Did you know they fired a guy for testifying on behalf of the infamous fab? How blatant is that? "Lets see.... were being sued for illegally firing guys for trying to organize...this guy is on their side....Yeah, let's fire him too. We'll get it all silenced when we settle out of court."

They don't care and by yourself you are helpless. The only way we can have any say in our life is by joining together.

 

[XTW]

Perfect example is some pilots at CS can live where they want. New hires must live within 90 miles.

Actually, that isn't true. There has never been a mileage limit involved. It used to be that you had to live within 90 minutes of your base. Last year,that requirement was changed to 120 minutes of your base. The only ones that don't have this restriction are the ones that were on the property before the policy was instituted, and were "grandfathered" out of the policy. It seems fair enough to me that they weren't required to move. Everyone else accepted the policy as a term of their employment offer when hired.

 

[psysicx]

So are most pilots happy there.I heard that everyone upgrades by there second year?

 

[Diesel]

minutes are even more screwed up then.

Who is to say how many minutes it takes me to get to work. Mapquest? Was this then agreed to by the pilots. Remember mapquest takes the easiest route not necessarily the quickest. Is it 120 minutes using a ford focus or a porche?

Mileage is a lot less subjective than minutes.

What if a pilot that is grandfathered moves? Does he lose his clause or do they keep it for him because he was special?

 

[BortaS]

minutes are even more screwed up then.

Who is to say how many minutes it takes me to get to work. Mapquest? Was this then agreed to by the pilots. Remember mapquest takes the easiest route not necessarily the quickest. Is it 120 minutes using a ford focus or a porche?

Mileage is a lot less subjective than minutes.

What if a pilot that is grandfathered moves? Does he lose his clause or do they keep it for him because he was special?

This is how it works. They ask you if you can make the drive in two hours. They give people a lot of wiggle room with that too. I know some guys who can do the drive in two hours unless its rush hour then it takes them much more. What the company is looking for is to just keep some kind of control over where people live. As long as you're not an idiot and try to tell them you can make something unreasonable sound like two hours they have been very cool with people. I even know of the company puting people up in a hotel at their base if it was too late to make the drive home.

As far as the few that are still grandfathered, it should be obvious that if you chose to move, it's now your problem to be at a base. It has nothing to do with being special. I know of several people who gave up being able to live at their old place to move to Florida or Denver. Most of those "special" people as you call them lived in the HPN area to begin with as that was once the only base. Off hand I can only think of 2 or 3 people who still live outside of a base.

So, for us minutes is not screwed up. It seems to work quite well. It is one of the policies that I have never heard anyone complain about. If you're fishing to find something we complain about or feel unfair this is not it.

 

[Cpt Splash]

To answer the threads original question, Citation Shares is a good place to work. The friends I have working there love their job.

The positives are standardized training, new equipment, job security, and upgrade time. Rumor is though that getting a response on one's resume is a little tougher than the other Fracs, because many pilots are sending their resume through.

And don't listen to these guys who seem to think that the fractionals are substandard and corporate is the way to go. Their the same type who believe their sh!t doesn't stink. Last time I looked CS, Flexjet, and NJ having been doing well, other then the NJ pilots being a little disgruntled about what they have been going through for the past few years. I think they are finally going to get what the want because of the new leadership in the union

Fly safe

 

[DBCOOPER]

People like 650 who post things so rediculously immature do so b/c they live their life miserably day in and day out.

If one chooses to fly for a fractional like CS, wonderful. Just finding a job today flying an airplane is challenging enough. There is always some loser out there questioning others career decisions, it's funny b/c they are usually the type that don't know their head from their ash.

For the record, CS is a fine place to work. It's nice equipment, flexible living, decent wages and most importantly....quick trip to the left seat. For what's available these days, it's a darn good option.

 

[h25b]

I can't believe these frac guys dogging the corporate side.

This from the group that pays their F.O.'s half what decent corporate operations pay, this from the same pilots that point to the corporate side when arguing for higher pay rates, this from the group that has spent the last decade making it more difficult for corporate operators to keep the pay acceptable for the industry, this from an industry that floods the charter market for supplemental lift because it's soo efficient in its operations, this from a pilot group that basically lives at the F.B.O. waiting till the very last minute of available crew duty time while HQ desparately tries to screw them in to another trip, this from the group of pilots I've been listening to for years in pilot lounges telling me how "great" the "new" contract is going to be if/when it ever happens, this from a group of pilots that overwhelms the files of resumes at every reputable Part 91 corporate operation with the statement in the Objective line of the resume that states, "Long-term stable flight crewmember position at XYZ, Inc." This from the same group of pilots I see daily dining on yet another fine boxed crew meal in the pilot's lounge of the F.B.O. while I'm on my way out the door for a decent meal at the restaurant of my choice fully paid for by the company on their credit card...

I could go on. But I have a better idea.

How bout we just all shut the H^LL up and start helping each other out.

Because I'm sure the frac guys/gals have a similar list they could give for my side too...

Oh by the way. For the Frac guys that constantly hog the one and only computer at the FBO for hours on end like it's their home computer (and in reality it is...). Please remember there are other pilots around that would like the use of it for at least 2 minutes to check their e-mail or perhaps post more worthless banter on boards such as this...

 

[English]

DBCOOPER, time to update the profile?

 

[650 driver]

Good Post H25B, their is good and bad to both sides. I am sure when a decent 91 opening is listed on a popular job site,the fracsters flood that company with resumes and surely they wont admit it.
Hopefully most Chief pilots will not even consider them, just like most did not consider the laid off airline pilots.
Heck I might even have to lower myself and go to a fractional and if I do I would not expect a good 91 ops to consider me, since I jumped across the fractional fence.
Ok flame me Im ready..............................

650

 

[Cpt Splash]

When I weighed my options and considered going the route I went, I did it for good reasons.

1st: I used to work 135 charter, and I was tired of getting the 3am wakeup call, arrive at the airport in one hour, and arrange everything myself. The fracs offered a schedule, a dispatch office, new equipment, and 6 month recurrent training at a reputable training center.

2nd: I had the choice of going the regional airline route, but the problem with that is that I get a schedule that would be the same airports over and over again, I personally like going to unusual airports every once and awhile. The pay is much less then any of the Fracs, and the way the airline industry is going lately, the idea of job sercurity and benefits is just not there.

3rd: Going corporate is one of the harder gigs to get involved in because it is all about right time, right place, and who you know. The time and experience requirements are higher working for a fortune 500 company.

Bottom line. I'm young and have all the time in the world to make my next decision on where I need to be. The fracs right now for me work and for other young guys, would be a good route to go also. In five years I could see myself going to a Southwest, Jetblu, or possibly a Kodak, or Coca Cola. Only time will tell.

So when guys ask about this company or that company, lets just try and help each other out and not make childish comments just so we can see are posts on the internet. Just my 2 cents