Circle-to-Land Procedures at US Airways (and other majors)

[Whoop Whoop]

Hello All,

I'm a former regional guy who transitioned to the corporate side of the world, as a Chief Pilot/Captain in a corporate flight department.

My Director of Operations (who never flew for the airlines), but his mentor did (a former -old- US Air) guy, allegedly taught him years ago about circle-to-land procedures.

His take was, "If the captain is sitting closest to the runway in a circle (to the left), the captain should manage the heading bug, while the f.o. flies the airplane- according to the flight director. Conversely, if the f.o. is sitting closest to the runway in a circle (to the right), the captain should fly the airplane while the f.o. manages the heading bug."

My D.O. is trying to incorporate this into our procedures, while I vehemently disagree. The few times he's attempted this (both in the sim and the airplane), it has been a goat-rope.

My question is this: Any US Air guys/gals out there, (and let's open it up to all major folks)...

What are your current procedures for a circle-to-land?

Thank you in advance!

All the best-

Whoop Whoop

 

[aa73]

What's a goat rope? Sounds perverted...

 

[iflyhigh]

Whoop Whoop:

First I have flown both corporate and airline and have never heard of this kind of procedure for circling in my life.

The pilot flying the aircraft does the circle. In both groups the pilot on the side that has a view of the aircraft would give direction as to when a good point to turn, especially at airports you don't go into often. At our home airport, we knew when to turn by landmarks.

Major airlines due very few cirlces. MDW, Midway Chicago, and Burbank are just a couple of airports that they do circle approaches at.

 

[Spooky 2]

Voodoo flying procedures at their worst. Can't imagine any Part 121 carrier doing this BS!

 

[m80drvr]

USAirways has NO procedure for circle to land. In fact the AAA type ratings were restricted to NO CIRCLE TO LAND. If I remember correctly we did not practice them when I was trained on the 80 in 1999.

The combined company also has no procedures for circle to land. The weather has to be VFR for anything other than a straight in IFR procedure. If it is VFR (IE 1000 and 3 minimum) below the cloud layer then you can fly a VFR pattern and land. There is no special procedure for this though. It is expected that you can fly a dowind base and final without a set procedure.

Hope that helps

 

[stagger]

circle

Many airlines do not do circle approaches anymore. They still do the side step within 35 degrees of runway heading. But these are basically vfr only. Some airlines have dropped ndb approaches also. I do not think the usair guys do true circle approaches or ndb approaches anymore.

 

[Spooky 2]

Okay lets look at this source for a point of reference. What others have said about airlines and the circling approach bans are true and yes many type ratings given through the various airline training departments come with the "no circling approach" restriction. Having all that if you were to go directly to Boeing for your initial training and rating, and assumming your Ops Specs allowed for circling approaches this is what you might expect from Boeing. Minimums of 800-2 for a class D aircraft like the B777 or B767-200/300. The procedure would be flown with the autopilot engaged throughout the maneuver and not until such time you had the runway insight would leave the min altitude and only then would descend to the runways touchdown point. The pilot must disconnect the AP prior to leaving MDA-50' so as to complete the landing. In the case of the Boeings the procedure is to circle with 20 flaps until turning base and then go to 30 flaps so as to minimize the turning radius in close to the airport. The PF in the left seat does all the mode selections on the MCP with the exception of the PM doing the altitude window selections.

Hope this helps moe than it hurts!

 

[Mookie]

R
N
P....

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

At my airline (-121) the -121 airplanes can't circle to land. They CAN do a visual traffic pattern.

Also, some airports (like Saltillo, Mexico) only let you circle in one direction, so the procedure you're talking about wouldn't work there.

cliff
ILN

 

[Spooky 2]

R
N
P....

Simple answer; RNP/ANP is a real time concept that uses generalized sensor performance characteristics to assess the current accuracy (not the integrety) of the state of navigation.

Next please!

 

[temcgrew]

If the autopilot is off then the PNF should control the heading bug, When the autopilot is on the the PF controls it, since then it actually is controlling the aircraft. This is anytime during the flight, doesn't matter if you are doing an approach or not.
At least that's my take on it, i'm sure some will disagree.

 

[Spooky 2]

If the autopilot is off then the PNF should control the heading bug, When the autopilot is on the the PF controls it, since then it actually is controlling the aircraft. This is anytime during the flight, doesn't matter if you are doing an approach or not.
At least that's my take on it, i'm sure some will disagree.

Not to disagree at all with your procedure, but the scenario first described had the pilot flying the maneuver while the PM was handling the heading bug. Not sure what the purpose of the heading being tweaked to begin with since this is a visual maneuver once the airport is sighted for the circle. If you leave the autopilot on (assuming you have one to begin with) the circle to land becomes a lot easier and alot safer, thus the PF does the updating of the heading bug. Remember the missed approach requires the aircraft to fly back around to the MAP for the runway originally used for the letdown to visual circling mins. Again with the autopilot on, your much safer and the workload is simplified to a great degree should have to go missed.

 

[regionaltard]

Sounds to me like the DO is the expert because of the position he's in rather than in the position he's in because he's an expert. Yikes. Say what you want about airline flying, but most of the really stupid operational $hit has been weeded out through the years.

 

[aa73]

So is someone gonna explain what exactly a roping goat has to do with all of this?

 

[Alcatraz]

So is someone gonna explain what exactly a roping goat has to do with all of this?

A "goat rope" is similar to "clusterf***." It could also mean, "big crazy mess."

Yee haw!

 

[Alcatraz]

Out of the four airlines I've worked at in the last 7.5 years (SYX, ATA, AAY, SWA), all eventually didn't do "circling approaches." They all did "circling maneuvers," which is a visual traffic pattern in weather above 1000/3. I think this came about because the FAA felt that testing circling approaches in a sim were unrealistic or impractical.

And, from what I remember, none of the airlines I've been at had a specific procedure with the AP/FD (when equipped) regarding how a circling approach was to be flown that was any different than the standard PF/PNF duties. From what I can remember of our FOM at SWA, it's up to the PF how it's to be done (and, then, ultimately up to the Captain)... so there's no procedure, merely techniques.

 

[Spooky 2]

Your exactly right...most 121 ops do not do the circling approach , although there must be a few that do, say maybe Alaska? At any rate it's a hazardous maneuver, especially if not done with a rigid procedure in place. In my previous life, even though we observed the 1000 & 3 for a visual manuever, we none the less trained for the circle so as not to have the limitation on our rating. In my current life we do the circle and train for the 800 & 2. It tends to be a much more demanding approach than any CAT I ILS IMO.

 

[scoreboard]

so your visual the field, hand flying, and your setting the heading bug because you want someone to drop their SA and go inside, is that it??

 

[XBI]

Whoop Whoop,
Your D.O. -- or his mentor is full of it. At least for the past 24 years, that <<PNF setting the heading bug while the other guy yanks and banks>> procedure never happened at USAir. Not on the Fokker, the Boeings, or the Airbus. In fact it's even burned onto your A320 type rating that the "circ. aprch. VMC only" The frac that I work for today does circling approaches, but only on autopilot until rolling out on final with alt hold engaged and in a position to make a normal descent to land.

 

[FlyByNight1]

What's a goat rope? Sounds perverted...

First let me say... that was funny...

Now for the rest.

I fly in a 121 operation that does circle to land.
keep it simple. Break out on the approach. Pilot flying keeps landing surface in sight and maintains proper distance from runway. Then lands the airplane on the runway. What happened to flying the airplane?