cheap foreign labor

[doh]

Oh my God! Stop the presses! I agree with bart! You are 100% correct! Only you can improve your lot in life! YAY RAH bart!

 

[enigma]

A nation that does not produce can not survive.

roger that

 

[Swass]

I live in a neighborhood full of them. They often walk down to the locked furniture (Thomasville) and textile (Sara Lee) factories in the evenings for exercise after they get off work at Walmart. Both companies now doing 75% of manufacturing in Mexico and China.

I work in an office with two people whose employers went belly-up after losing their largest client to firms in India and Singapore.

You're a piece of work, Bart.

Minh

They need to get their asses to a Juco and get retrained, or to a 4 year school to get some competetive jobskills. Folks, there are lots of friggin' jobs out there, if you can't find one because it hasn't bitten you in the butt then that's your fault. Government does not exist to protect your job, the competetive market will dictate that. If you aren't employable stacking boxes then go get a skill that makes you employable.

 

[jarhead]

Swass

I do agree with your statement that it is not the purpose of government to be an employer. There are legitimate needs for the government to be a direct employer (cops, teachers, snow plow operators on highways, armed forces, etc). That said, the government should not directly create jobs, but rather indirectly, where it buys goods and services from the private sector….food from farmers to feed the troops, guns from manufacturers to arm soldiers and cops, GM or Ford making vehicles for government, all give owe some fraction of their job security to government contracting. ….you get the drift. But, that is limited, and rightfully so, to the legitimate needs of a government to contract out for jobs. I think we all would agree that it’s better that Boeing or Lockheed make military aircraft, than for the military start their own manufacturing enterprise (Gawd, what a nightmare that would be).

What is also true (IMO) is that government can do little to create jobs in an economic downturn. It does, however, have the capacity to kill jobs, through onerous regulations, tax policies, and other legislated mandates that make American business be in a competitive disadvantage to other countries less regulated.

Where I would disagree with you, is that anyone can just go out, get retrained, or get a four year degree in a new field, and wala…..problem solved. Many who have seen their industries and jobs outsourced to offshore companies simply are unable to do that. When one is younger, yes, perhaps. But a 50 year old whose entire career is now in an obsolete field, or a field with an over supply of workers, cannot always have that luxury. Kids in college, mortgage on the house, medical insurance premiums, etc. To suggest that one can have the luxury of going without a paycheck for four years or live on wages from K-mart, plus the added expense of going to school, simply is not a viable choice.

I agree that it is not the government direct responsibility to “make work”. It is in our constitution that government “promote the general welfare” of the citizenry. Copied below is the preamble to the US constitution, where you will find that mandate of government.

“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

There are no easy answers, and I certainly don’t have one. I do empathize with workers who have been rolled over, through no fault of their own. It is not just a matter of getting off ones ass.

 

[Ty Webb]

As for all these "great jobs" going overseas, do you know anyone who was fired because their job went overseas? I do not, and noone I know does either.



Sounds like you need to broaden your circle of friends.

My hometown is losing a factory (an admittedly profitable one) to Mexico this year. 1200 jobs gone in one small community.

The profits that this factory was making wasn't enough . .. .they could make even more in Mexico. Of course, who will be left to buy their crap when all of the decent jobs are gone?

 

[sf3boy]

On the other side of the coin, there are a few pilots at Mesaba who are there purely because the Commander in Chief (i use that term loosely) in the nineties decided to virtually dismantle the military.

One guy in particular told me that he had no intention of flying in the airlines, he wanted to be a Marine. After a few years in, Clinton told him that his job was no longer needed.

I know another guy who was in intelligence in the Navy and Clinton told him the same thing. He could take early retirement before being promoted to Captain, or stay in and loose the majority of his pension. He is now a securities broker for a bank.

It doesn't matter who is in the White House. Jobs will be lost. Those who are able to do other things than what they feel they are entitled to do, will make things work. It's funny, I know many people who have been laid off and the ones who really want to work and provide for their families seem to have minimal trouble doing so.

 

[Swass]

People also need the forethought to prepare themselves for changing work conditions, nationwide. The best way to do that is to position yourself accordingly (education and job selection), preferably before starting a family (I know it's not a perfect world).

These are just my thoughts, my 2 cents if you will. I believe in people hedging their bets and making the most of what God gave them. Got skills? Then use them to your advantage. Play the percentages like you would in Vegas.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

sf3 and Swass both brought up some valid points but I question how American biz will be 5-10 years down the road? If we continue this path it will eventually effect the "hard working", honorable person who does want to make an honest living. Think the college/education card is overplayed as well. Think college education benefits the educators more than the educatees.
I noticed on a Bush ad the other day he acknowledged jobs are being outsourced and stated he will make it "easier" for small business people. Speculate he's greasing the wheels. Wish I had the guts (and capital!) to start a business (around aviation of course ).
I'm concerned with GWB's proposal to loosen our borders. Think this will potentially bring in cheaper labor and more social issues which require more guberment and tax dollars. Also concerned the new occupants will be more interested in seeing what America can do for them. There will be no loyalty to this country.
Don't think the "industries" of professional wrestling, gambling, and porn are a good foundation for this country to build upon.

 

[jarhead]

Regarding the opening of borders. If you are referring to the border with Mexico, I have no problem with that. The Mexican citizens have a value system similar to Americans; family, church, hard work, and not steeped in religious fanaticism. Workers coming across the Mexican borders, generally are filling jobs that “we” won’t accept. They are providing services we all take for granted, and would sorely miss if no one did those jobs.

A friend of mine started his own business about 10 years ago. He is a sod farmer, and grows, sells, and installs sod to mainly large commercial and government accounts (street boulevards, commercial office complexes, and a few residential jobs). He is now a millionaire. ALL his labor comes from unskilled Mexican labor, who come in on work visas every spring. He never has any ‘Anglos’ who apply for this back breaking work….only Mexicans and Salvadorans seem to apply for the work.

I look around my town at the new home construction going up. The roofing contractors have mainly Mexicans doing that work as well. I spoke with one of the roofing contractors I know about my observation. He said no one else wants to do that job. It’s hard work, dangerous, and leads to a lot of back injuries. We should be happy that these people who pick our vegetables, nanny our kids, work in the hotels, etc, want to do that work at the low wage they are typically paid. Without that labor, your house you build will cost a lot more, as well as your grocery bill, hotel stay, etc. These folks do pay taxes on their wages, and in the case of the owner of the sod farm I mentioned, all his employees come up here alone and leave their families in Mexico in the summer, and send most of their paycheck home, as they live in employer paid dormitories on the farm. They pay taxes that they by-in-large, they get no direct benefit from.

 

[Bernoulli]

What's scary about outsourcing is it completely removes power from workers and from unions. If the working conditions suck or you want more $ the companies will simply move their operation to some **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hole with crap work conditions. Companies do not care about their workers, companies care about the bottom line. 15 years ago in the U.S., companies with half a brain realized it was better to treat their employees with respect and compensation rather than have a union do it for them. So to keep the unions away the companies treated their employees well. This was expensive but was the most cost effective way of doing business. Well, along comes global outsourcing and now companies do have alternatives... and, now that pandoras box has been opened, most businesses MUST outsource to compete. The end result for the worker here in the U.S. is reduced job security... and forget about getting a raise or asking for more because now there is someone somewhere who would love to do your job for thirty cents a day. Outsourcing means companies no longer need to be responsible for working conditions or giving raises. I think global outsourcing and the ability to transfer data instantly around the earth is a MAJOR historical time. Global outsourcing will destroy unions, job security, and working conditions will be compromised. It's nature... survival of the fittest.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Statistically, one cannot say we are any more unemployed now than ever. If the health of your chosen industry has changed, then you need to adapt. It's as applicable in aviation as anything else. Only you can help stop the whining.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf

 

[jarhead]

You may be right, Hugh, but the quality and pay of those jobs held is NOT measured in the unemployment rates put out every month. It does not address those who must hold down two jobs to stay off the homeless roles, and it does not address the people whose wages have stagnated and dramatically declined over the past few years. Nor do the unemployment percentages address the people who have fallen off the unemployment compensation 26 week safety net. Numbers can be very deceiving.

But, you are right, no amount of "whining", as you put it, will change anything. And yes, one must keep their wits about them, and work hard to get themselves out of economic distress. I choose to have a certain amount of empathy with these folks who have fallen on hard times. They sure could use some moral support, rather than calling them lazy, stupid people, and imply it's their entire fault for falling into the role of the disenfranchised. There but for the grace of God……….

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Statistically, one cannot say we are any more unemployed now than ever. If the health of your chosen industry has changed, then you need to adapt. It's as applicable in aviation as anything else. Only you can help stop the whining.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf

Hugh, you are correct sir. but let's say something effected you personally that cut you off at the knees. For example, cabotage. While you may adapt, speculate you'd be hacked off at the very least.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I choose to have a certain amount of empathy with these folks who have fallen on hard times. They sure could use some moral support, rather than calling them lazy, stupid people, and imply it's their entire fault for falling into the role of the disenfranchised.

I do as well. And for those who adapt I have the utmost respect. For those who choose to do nothing but whine, I have none. An unemployed person is not lazy or stupid. An unemployed person who doesn't adapt is, however, a loser.

 

[jarhead]

Hugh

We are probably on the same page then

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Hugh, you are correct sir. but let's say something effected you personally that cut you off at the knees. For example, cabotage. While you may adapt, speculate you'd be hacked off at the very least.

Sure I would. But I wouldn't waste much of my energy in being "hacked off" or whining about it. I'd need too much of it to prepare myself for what I needed to do to adapt and succeed in my new surroundings. Placing blame is such a waste of energy. Dealing with your current situation would be much more efficient.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Hugh

We are probably on the same page then

Sounds good to me.

 

[surfnole]

****
People also need the forethought to prepare themselves for changing work conditions, nationwide. The best way to do that is to position yourself accordingly (education and job selection), preferably before starting a family (I know it's not a perfect world).
*****

Its difficult to tell what industries will do well. Four years ago, IT was king of the heap. Now its disappearing overseas. What exactly should we retrain for? Engineering? Finance? Accounting? Many of those jobs will go overseas too.

I checked into Physician's assistant. Its a two year graduate program with about one year of prerequisites. Starting pay around 60K and tops out about 100k. Perhaps when they send my jobs overseas I will give it a go.

 

[jarhead]

Surfnole

You hit upon an occupation I know something about. I have a nephew, who at the age of 30, decided to completely change direction. He wanted to become a P.A. (physicians assistant). He lives in Montana, and went to the University of Montana for the 21 month course, and then several six week rotations in different diciplines, all over the country.....from Alaska to Missouri. He got outstanding grades and recommendations from surgeons he ran into and worked under in those rotations.

Fast forward.........

He is now 34 years of age, living in the city of Bozeman, Montana, and working as a P.A. to an orthopedic surgeon partnership, specializing in neck and back surgery. He's been there less than two years, and is now pulling in just under 150 K per year. True, he doesn't have a life, as he's always on call, and works about an 80 hour work week. But.....he loves the job, so it does not seem like work to him.

BTW, the MD's he works for all pull in just under 500 K per year, but they put in about 11 years of school to get there.

P.A. is a good route if you have the smarts for it. Very hard education, with lots of chemistry and drug related courses.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Surfnole

He is now 34 years of age, living in the city of Bozeman, Montana,

ANNNNND, he gets to ski the steep and deep of Bridger Bowl. I've skied that ridge. Most insane powder skiing I've ever done!