Chautauqua and Non-uninons

[skygirls]

Just a few questions for those who are interested. I have an upcoming interview with Chautauqua and have been reading the information posted about "Republic Airways." I don't understand how anyone could call a pilot a "scab" because they work for Chautauqua when Chat. is unionized? If Republic is formed how will this effect Chautauqua pilots and will they be given a bad name in the industry even though they are not flying for Republic Airways?

Thanks ahead of time!!

 

[BE90CPT]

It will be in everyone's interest if Republic does not begin. It is still being fought over.

And no, it will not make you look bad working for them. What it may do is keep you from moving up with much speed.

I would like some feedback on this, but from my understanding.

Chq pilots have 3 options.

1. Accept the Jets for Jobs idea. (limits how many a/c can be used)

2. Fight off the Republic airline deal.

3. Fight off both the J4J and the Republic idea.

Now here is my question. If you accept the J4J idea. When the airline begins to recall the furlouged pilots, which they eventually will, do those a/c being used return to mainline CHQ pilots? Next question. IF Republic airline is formed, will the pilots being used there ONLY be furloughed pilots? if not, then accepthing the J4J would be the best idea? I could sure use some imput on these thoughts please

 

[BE90CPT]

One more thing to add.

Before all the layoffs and cutbacks, when did the Major Airlines and Unions EVER care what happened with the commuters? besides Continetal Express did any other Major have any kind of "Flow through" aggrement with any Commuter airline?

It seems that ALPA only cares about the Major Airline Pilots. Now that so many of them are on the streets, now they expect the commuter airlines to help them out. I would consider some kind of aggreement with the j4j proposition ONLY if it also contained wording that would create a solid flow-through program to the Major airline once the economy improves and all furloughed pilots are recalled.

J4J is perhaps not totally a bad idea. It might be possible to use it as a bit of leverage for improving the contracts and future flying for commuter pilots.

 

[pilotdad]

It is my understanding that if Republic is formed, it will be staffed by furloughed US pilots only. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[BE90CPT]

That is Correct. It will be staffed only by US Airways Furloughed Pilots...


I think what the US Airways Furloughed Pilots will be doing by accepting jobs with Republic is CREATING A NEW KIND OF SCAB PILOT.

Yes, i said it... These Pilots are a new ugly breed of SCABS!!!!!!!!

 

[BoredToDeath]

That is Correct. It will be staffed only by US Airways Furloughed Pilots...


I think what the US Airways Furloughed Pilots will be doing by accepting jobs with Republic is CREATING A NEW KIND OF SCAB PILOT.

Yes, i said it... These Pilots are a new ugly breed of SCABS!!!!!!!!

Simmer Down. Before you start calling the furloughed Mainline guys scabs let me through this out to ya.

EVERY ROUTE that an RJ is on right now was a mainline route that has been given to the contract carriers that operate jets. ALL FUTURE RJ routes will have been mainline routes that these guys used to fly before it was outsourced to contract carriers and they were furloughed.

The contract carriers are enjoying growth at the US AIRWAYS GROUP expense. I say let them staff republic with the furloughed guys, its THIER FLYING TO BEGIN WITH.

 

[BE90CPT]

OK, let's say the routes were US Airways mainline routes. That's true, but US Airways chose to remove those routes from mainline. Why, because they could not operate them profitably. If you own a business with several locations and one is not profitable you get rid of it. You don't later come back and say, hey, that's my business.
Keep the routes in the company. That is good business sence. Taking a job that undercuts the company ALREADY servicing those routes just because ALPA say's you can does not make it OK. It makes you no better than a SCAB!!!!! it's all predetory behavior... you know it comming in, its no big suprise. JUST SAY NO!!!!!

 

[BoredToDeath]

I agree they aren't scabs... however, they are undercutting the industry by taking a 1000% pay cut (however much it really is) to fly the same routes they used to be making six figures on. How is it that these pilots went from six figure major airline pilots to regional pilots who are undercutting another regional?

Everything going on with the J4J deal and Mesa is absoutely astounding to me. I mean, the airline history has been burned by many things (Frank Lorenzo is the first thing that pops to my mind, among others), but to have pilots undercutting pilots for flight time is amazing. Self respect anyone?

We all expect in our careers that you need to work your way up. I know I do... there is a long road ahead. You do what it takes to move up to bigger and better every day. Even at your own company... making it profitable to get larger planes, more planes, more routes, etc. Now though it seems like a lot of pilots are working themselves into a career bell curve...

however, they are undercutting the industry by taking a 1000% pay cut (however much it really is) to fly the same routes they used to be making six figures on.

It's a viciuos cycle. Remember that contract carriers have undercut the mainline pilots pilots for years. Thats one of the many reasons they are on the street right now and we are not. I guess what comes around really does go around.

How is it that these pilots went from six figure major airline pilots to regional pilots who are undercutting another regional?

Because Mgt found a way to bring costs down. Furlough the people who are making a good living and give their work to someone else(contract carriers), then make them fight for their jobs with the contract carriers.

but to have pilots undercutting pilots for flight time is amazing. Self respect anyone?

This is why there NEVER should have been any kind of contracting. All flying, from a 1900 to A330 should have been done by ONE PILOT GROUP and ONE COMPANY.

 

[Brother Francis]

Boredtodeath said:
"All flying, from a 1900 to A330 should have been done by ONE PILOT GROUP and ONE COMPANY."

Which begs the question:

Why is it not?

The answer may surprise you.

 

[Concierj]

Simmer Down. Before you start calling the furloughed Mainline guys scabs let me through this out to ya.

EVERY ROUTE that an RJ is on right now was a mainline route that has been given to the contract carriers that operate jets. ALL FUTURE RJ routes will have been mainline routes that these guys used to fly before it was outsourced to contract carriers and they were furloughed.

The contract carriers are enjoying growth at the US AIRWAYS GROUP expense. I say let them staff republic with the furloughed guys, its THIER FLYING TO BEGIN WITH.

Not a true statement. I agree, however, that several former mainline routes are now flown by smaller equipment, DO-328's included.

 

[BoredToDeath]

OK, let's say the routes were US Airways mainline routes. That's true, but US Airways chose to remove those routes from mainline. Why, because they could not operate them profitably. If you own a business with several locations and one is not profitable you get rid of it. You don't later come back and say, hey, that's my business.
Keep the routes in the company. That is good business sence. Taking a job that undercuts the company ALREADY servicing those routes just because ALPA say's you can does not make it OK. It makes you no better than a SCAB!!!!! it's all predetory behavior... you know it comming in, its no big suprise. JUST SAY NO!!!!!

but US Airways chose to remove those routes from mainline. Why, because they could not operate them profitably

I'll give you that. US Airways has not so much a Major Airline network, but rather one of a Super Regional Airline with Some international flying. This comes from years of virtually no growth.

You don't later come back and say, hey, that's my business.

All express flying is mainline flying on loan to someone else. It will come and go like the wind. The mainline MEC is watching out for their furloughed brothers. If the company plans to expand the express network and gain profits, you better belive that the furloughed pilots are going to reap some of that reward.

Taking a job that undercuts the company ALREADY servicing those routes just because ALPA say's you can does not make it OK. It makes you no better than a SCAB!!!!! it's all predetory behavior... you know it comming in, its no big suprise. JUST SAY NO!!!!!

Its funny but the WOs say the same thing about the contract carriers. Makes ya think don't it?

One thing remains constant though. There will be more surprises' to come.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Not a true statement. I agree, however, that several former mainline routes are now flown by smaller equipment, DO-328's included.

I made a few statements, which would you say is not true?

And yes a few of those routes are a 328. I do not claim that the US AIRWAYS EXPRESS GROUP COMPANIES, ie PDT, ALG , and PSA are not flying segments that used to be mainline. But then again, there was usually a mainline jet and a WO on the same route and to this day many of the places that the WO's fly to have a mainline flight as well except of course in places where the mainline flight has been replaced with an RJ or two.

And remember the WOs are not contract employement Mainline and the three WO's make up the US AIRWAYS GROUP. The flying needs to stay within the GROUP.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Boredtodeath said:
"All flying, from a 1900 to A330 should have been done by ONE PILOT GROUP and ONE COMPANY."

Which begs the question:

Why is it not?

The answer may surprise you.

Oh there's no surprise. The major airline pilots of yesteryear(sp?) lacked vision. But all you need to do is look at say BahamasAir for an example. Dash8's and 73's all under one roof and it works. Even AirJamaca operates TwinOtters and Airbuses under one list. The question is how do these companies make it work and the good ole U.S. of A. can't.

 

[Concierj]

EVERY ROUTE that an RJ is on right now was a mainline route that has been given to the contract carriers that operate jets.

 

[BoredToDeath]

EVERY ROUTE that an RJ is on right now was a mainline route that has been given to the contract carriers that operate jets.

I think you would be "hard pressed" to look at any flight that an RJ is on right now and tell me that it did'nt replace a mainline flight, aside from any areas where mainline never operated, and in which case the RJ replaced a WO.

 

[Concierj]

CLT-XNA
CLT-LIT
CLT-BTR
CLT-JAN
BOS-IND

Just to name a few. I'm not trying to pick a bone.

 

[46Driver]

What if the customer wants more flexibility? Say mainline was previously providing one 737 flight per day - then due to customer demand three RJ's are then placed on the route: morning, noon, and night. Is the RJ taking away a route, or is the company giving the customer what they want? Not trying to pick a fight (at least today...), just curious about perspectives.

 

[BoredToDeath]

CLT-XNA
CLT-LIT
CLT-BTR
CLT-JAN
BOS-IND

Just to name a few. I'm not trying to pick a bone.

I know your not trying to pick a fight, neither am I.


Just to name a few routes that were Mainline and now rest in the hands of the contract carriers.

PHL-BTV
PIT-ERI
LGA-DAY

Now I'm sure that we could go all night trying to one up eachother, but I don't have the energy to look up old flights thats why I stoped at just 3.

The point was that with as many Mainline aircraft that the GROUP lost it is very apparent that the RJ is the replacement for those aircraft. And if theres gonna be any growth there better not be one GROUP EMPLOYEE on the street.


What if the customer wants more flexibility? Say mainline was previously providing one 737 flight per day - then due to customer demand three RJ's are then placed on the route: morning, noon, and night. Is the RJ taking away a route, or is the company giving the customer what they want? Not trying to pick a fight (at least today...), just curious about perspectives.

Driver,

I think the company has the responsibilty of right sizing the route. Which is US AIRWAYS biggest problem. There is too much overlap between express and mainline. But it is because of the situation you describe that we need to have all US Airways flying done by US Airways Group Employees. And with the chain of events taking place in the company I think you will see less contracting taking place within the next few years.

 

[Brother Francis]

Had the airlines gone to one-list years ago, this discussion would be moot, but to call it "lack of vision" euphamizes what amounts to a past and continuing refusal of the ML guys to permit jets at the WO's. It is class warfare which has created and which perpetuates the outsourcing you so abhor. It is true that the contract carriers now siphon off jobs from the WO's, but now the ML pilots are coming in and trying to siphon off the jobs from both the WO and the contract carriers.

Now that the ML guys are hitting the streets due to their short sighted and continuing refusal to acknowledge their lesser brethren, they now place such stipulations on the one-list initiative as to make it not only unacceptable, but unpalateable to the WO guys or claim the outsourced jobs (created at the expense of the WO pilots) as their right.

You are correct, the outsourcing of flying has had, and continues to have, severely detrimental effects on the WO carriers, but it is due to the deliberate and continuing actions of the ML pilots. When they had the chance had they just said: "We are one airline. Hire into the right seat of a 1900 and retire from the left seat of a 330, none of this, NONE, would have occurred. Not CHQ, Mesa, TSA, ACA, SKW, MDA, RJDC, Freedom, Republic, j4j, AX etc, etc. All of this is as a direct result of the ML pilots insistence that the pilots of the big airplanes and little airplanes at their respective airlines remain segregated.

Look at the untold millions of $$ wasted and all the machinations that are occuring even today to keep the classes separate. The mind boggles. Not so much that it has occurred, that is water under the bridge, but that it continues even today.

If you are going to cast blame, it should be directed at those who created the environment, not those who live in it.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Had the airlines gone to one-list years ago, this discussion would be moot,

I agree 100%

but to call it "lack of vision" euphamizes what amounts to a past and continuing refusal of the ML guys to permit jets at the WO's.

Actually there is No continuing refusal to permit jets at the WO. Many more mainline pilots see the past mistakes that have been made and they know the importantce of keeping the flying within the group. But now we come to bankruptcy, and nothing can happen in bankruptcy.

It is class warfare which has created and which perpetuates the outsourcing you so abhor

Yes and No. Deregulation, I belive would be an even bigger part of the picture. But yes as you pointed out, I blammed the ML pilots as well. Lack of Vission!

but now the ML pilots are coming in and trying to siphon off the jobs from both the WO and the contract carriers.

You know its a dirty deal, but because its hitting so close to home I try to look at it as the flowthrough that never was, but now it is. For those on the outside of the company, its not a very good deal. For the WO's however this agreement means that it'll be a very long time before ML can hire from outside the company again. Alot of folks at the WOs do however belive that we infact may end up getting kicked out of our jobs as jets come on the property and turbo-props go away. I'm one of the people that do not belive that will be the case. Well it really depends on what day of the week you ask me. But in your situation above since CHQ has decided that it does not want to take part in J4J(which I whole-heartedly commend you guys for) but that also means no growth. I personnally hoped that all contract carriers would have turned J4J down. It would have been a good start to ending the outsourcing. But then the dirty mgrs. of the world come up with places like freedom and republic. Now even though I do not support these alter-ego airlines. What strikes me as being interesting is that republic will supposedly be only furloughed U ML people. Thats quite a bit different than what freedom did. freedom hired anybody and if republic will only be furloughed U ML then a part of me would support them going there and taking there flying back. Now I said a part of me, don't get all fired up. Just think about this for me, if your flying an outsourced aircraft in the colors of a company that is not your company then are they really "your" jobs?

they now place such stipulations on the one-list initiative as to make it not only unacceptable, but unpalateable to the WO guys or claim the outsourced jobs (created at the expense of the WO pilots) as their right.

But it has been accepted and there is nothing any of us can do about it. And one list will be a reality in the years to come. With regards to claiming the outsourced jobs as their own well I quess we have to answer the question of why was it OK for you guys to accept outsourced flying from U Group and now it would'nt be OK for them to accept outsourced flying from the CHQ group?

With regards to the rest of your post I pretty much agree with everything you said, so I hope you were'nt looking for an argument. Except this last sentence:If you are going to cast blame, it should be directed at those who created the environment, not those who live in it. Brother, I don't belive I cast any blame in any previous posts except when I said the ML pilots had Lack of Vision. But now that you bring it up doesn't everyone coming into the industry have the responsibility to learn about the industry. What I'm trying to say is that if all these young pilots did'nt jump at the first place that offered them a job just so they can build flight time and move on, I think that we would all be in a much better situation. Maybe some of you would have seen how outsourcing has had a negative affect on our business and decided not to go to those companies who make money by feeding off the fruits of another.