Charter with Lt. twin be a success?

[310]

Given business travelers disgust with delays, shoe checks, hubs etc do you think the time is ripe for charters using Barons, 310s,Senecas, Aztecs etc, etc to make a success of a charter biz?

 

[dav8or]

Sounds like a good way to make a small fortune........ If you have a large fortune to start with

 

[Timebuilder]

There may be a niche, but check first.

Are there a number of carriers in a business-intensive area like the northeast, for instance, who successfully operate a service like this?

I know at least two charter companies within 100nm of the NY metro area who have King Airs that spend a lot of time just sitting in the hangar, while the Lears and Hawkers are busy. That may be an indicator of the viability of prop charter for business travellers.

You might want to check with the FSDO office where you would be based, and ask if the FAA thinks that additional certificates would be granted for the area where you would propose to operate.

 

[Flex]

The FAA has NO LIMIT on how many air carrier (and that is what a 135 certificate is) certificates they can issue out of an office. As long as you do the paperwork, and pass all the tests, you will be issued a part 135 air carrier certificate. Getting one, and which kind (single pilot, multi pilot, multi airplane, etc.) is up to you. They all cost money and take time to get. The process can be painful, or not, depending on you and your equipment. You can imagine the scenarios, I'm sure.
The thing to do is something no one else is doing, or something no one else can do. Alot of it depends on where you are located, the type of business around. Do some canvasing, hit the streets. Get a suit on and start pounding the pavement and see what's out there...how much interest you can develope. You might need to develope a business plan (there are some great free websites for that) to help you achieve your goal. You will be amazed about how little you are prepared when you try to write out a business plan. It's a great excersize in entepeneuriship...and that's what you are doing, becoming a business man. Do not make the same mistake thousands of bankrupt pilots have made before you: starting an aviation business because they like to fly. If you like business, making phone calls, doing paperwork, dealing with the FAA, hangar fees, chamber of commerce meetings, great. If you like to drive, bear in mind, unless you are a single pilot, single airplane operator, you might have little time to actually fly. Good luck.

 

[Timebuilder]

The FAA has NO LIMIT on how many air carrier (and that is what a 135 certificate is) certificates they can issue out of an office. As long as you do the paperwork, and pass all the tests, you will be issued a part 135 air carrier certificate.

I have been told that this is the official position, but not the practical reality. I can't tell you how I found this info.

 

[Flex]

After 9-11, I was doing some work on the side for a company that had a string of offices in the northeast. I was asked to set up a corporate flight department. On paper, the best plane that I found was the PC-12, due to the low hourly cost. However, the idea of being in a plane with one engine, and a propeller on the end of it turned them off. Your westwind story reminded me of that. I guess you also have to offer something else that sells well: sex appeal. These business types don't want to ride around in something run by "rubber bands". The fact that the PT-6 is known as "bulletproof" in the industry is a fact that doesn't sell with them. Their buddies had jets, so they wanted jets.

 

[TurboS7]

I owned and ran a 135 operation for 12 years. We had 2 PA-31-350's, 3 Aztec's, 3 C-206's, 2 182's, and 1 PA-32-300. Worked great and flew a lot and got to do some interesting stuff. Having the airplanes opened up a lot of doors to do neat missionary stuff to South America. Your biggest headache will be the pilots, they can be a real pain in the neck and a real pain to work with.

 

[Rvrrat]

310,
In addition to the formentioned planning and thought put into starting & running a business, depending on where you are located, you might just have an advantage. The aircraft you listed as contemplating using could be a great "filter device." Find customers you can grow with and build relationships with those people who will be interested because what you offer would suit their business needs at a cost they can afford and provide an advantage over other modes of transportation available.
As an example: My father is the chief process engineer for a plastics molding company in N.E. OH. , that company's main customers are the automotive companies headquartered in Detroit which means he travels frequently for meetings on design and product specifications. Instead of driving or flying a commuter(which isn't always available and involves a lengthy drive to a served airport), he rides in a Lance of all things because it does the job and is affordable to the company.

Best of luck in your endeavors!

 

[jetdriven]

starting up a 135 op these days would be harder than ever! By the time you shell out 3-500K on a decent piston twin and PRAY you find insurance at any price your operating cost at even 50-100 hours per month will still be in the 700+ per hour range. Sincerely, the insurance is the wild card. I have a friend looking at barons, and it was 10 GRAND a year! Granted, he was pretty low time (750/100) but I dont see it any cheaper for a 135 operation. The biggest thing is liability. A C-414 has 7 seats for pax and it used to be over a million liability PER SEAT and now there isnt a company who will write a POLICY AT ANY PRICE even near that much liability.

 

[Timebuilder]

The Insurance Issue

A chater operator that I know sold both of his Navajos due to high insurance cost: $17000 per year, and a promise that it might go to $20,000 the next year. Don't get me started on the trial lawyers....

had a guy in CA tell me once that a Westwind was the most efficient flyer in his fleet...but nobody wanted to charter it because it looked funky compared to a Lear.

The other day I had a chance at Million Air TEB to look at an Astra and a Westwind side by side. People didn't like the Westwind's apearance, so the manufacturer put the wings on the bottom, and called it the Astra. The fuselage and tail are almost identical in appearance.

Your biggest headache will be the pilots, they can be a real pain in the neck and a real pain to work with.

 

[banned username 2]

A C-414 has 7 seats for pax

Yeah and a REALISTIC useful ability to carry only 5 passengers (including one in the right seat)... Remember piston twins don't have the greatest flexibility when it comes to hauling a lot of people... So just cuz' it has 7 seats doesn't mean you can put 7 fare paying passengers on board...

 

[Flex]

I just talked to a charter operator down the road from where I live. Been in business for about 15 years flying metroliners. Selling them now, insurance is too high. 40K per year. His C402 is 20k a year. Just can't justify it. I was quoted 10k for cargo only, 135 in a beat up old 310. I think passengers would have been more near 14k. I guess you pay for the seat. Perhaps the answer would be to hook up with several individuals and doa fractional ownership with them in your light piston twin. Then the insurance would be less, and of course, your need to go out and solicit business would not be a factor since you fly exlusively for the owners. I think that's what I'd do to avoid high insurance costs. Then you'd be operating it under part 91 as well, and could avoid all the FAA stuff.

 

[cvsfly]

Like many have said here, it is a daunting process to get a 135 certificate. Not to burst anyone's buble who wants to set one up, but know what you are up against, know your motivations for doing so, know your market, and have alot of resources. Insurance is going to be the killer with many operations in the near future. There are still a few who haven't seen their renewal policy yet. You can get high liability policies, but your choices are limited. I was told there are only 3 companies now insuring fro liabilities 100 million or more. Part 135 carries a higher premimum. On a late model BE-B200 with hull at 3.5 mil, 100 million liability and a 10% discount for using 2 pilots on a regular basis we were paying $21k. We renewed in Feb and that same policy went to $43k. We had to lower the liab. to $50 mil and reduced the hull (which needed to be lowered) to below its current value and now we are required to have 2 pilots on PT 91 & 135 flights. We are now paying $32k.
You need to budget 12 mo. for a neophyte start up for the application process and you have to aquire the aircraft before the process is finished. You have to have patience and a "yes sir" mentality to survive the process. I don't know if FSDO's can restrict certificates based on the number of operators in an area any more, but you are supposed to show that you are economically viable to sustain an operation (they don't want to see that you are partial to cutting corners on maintenance, etc).
A successful charter business has an established market that ideally is supprted by its own maintenance, FBO, aircraft sales and management and even flight school. If you are thinking about doing one because you are eager for a job or to build flight time that you will leave to go to the majors, you are barking up the wrong tree. If you have some people that have asked you to explore this subject, pursue a co-owned/shared/fractional aircraft setup. Either way your investors will have to come up with significant capital with little or no return on investment.

 

[jetdriven]

Yeah and a REALISTIC useful ability to carry only 5 passengers (including one in the right seat)... Remember piston twins don't have the greatest flexibility when it comes to hauling a lot of people... So just cuz' it has 7 seats doesn't mean you can put 7 fare paying passengers on board...

insurance premiums are derived from the number of seats on board. An A-36 has six seats but could never carry 6 adults. nevertheless the insurance is higher than an F-33A bonanza, which has only 4 seats. Thats what I was getting at.