CFIs, do you log ground given?

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

It specifically states in 61.189 that a CFI must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given ground or flight training.

But I honestly haven't ever had ground logged. I used the Cessna multimedia training system for most ground on my private; but never logged ground for the Instrument or commercial. However on the CFI did log the ground. This got me to thinking why a CFI wouldn't take a few extra seconds and cover his ass by logging all ground. Also, you know for sure what you've gone over.

If you have a student whom you teach on a two-hour ground session going over W&B, then the dude overloads a plane and crashes. I’d think the few moments you spent logging the ground would save your tail in the event of a lawsuit.

So do you log all ground given?

Fly safe,
TA

 

[SDCFI]

At the flight school I worked at we had a booklet we used. You would punch in and out on a time clock to get the times, then write whatever you covered that day along with homework for the next lesson. You and the student signed it and then the top copy was torn off and given to the student, the other copy stayed in the book. I'd just swipe a couple to use with my freelance students as well. I never put ground inst in a student's logbook, and no examiner ever questioned whether or not they had received the req'd ground training. I would venture to guess that as long as you have a record, either logbook or otherwise, of the req'd ground training you should be ok.

 

[Lead Sled]

I'll second what SDCFI said. Yes, you'll definately want a record of what was covered in each specific ground school period as well as for each flight which covers, in detail, exactly what was covered. This record should be signed by the student and a copy given to him/her and the other copy kept by the CFI. This is for your protection in the event that there is ever an inquirary as to the quality and adequacy of the instruction given. (Read: The guy crashes and some attorney is trying to sue your butt...)

Sporty's used to sell some forms that worked well for this purpose. I don't know if they still offer them, but it wouldn't be too hard to come up with something that would work. I'd keep the documents for longer than 3 years. I've still got mine from 20 years ago somewhere. I could probably get rid of those.

Lead Sled

 

[Timebuilder]

We used the Jeppesen tri-fold student record for this purpose.

 

[Matterhorn]

One of our local friendly federal folks told us he wanted every ground session logged with how much time was spent on each subject. That way he could more accurately poke at what he thought the student might be weak at.

 

[avbug]

Without fail, I ensure that any insruction given is very carefully documented in the recipient's logbook, and I keep copies.

I had an experience years ago in which an individual to which I had provided a checkout for a flying club, crashed an airplane. The flying club contacted me demanding that I either go back to falsify a flight review, or take responsibility for the event.

I did neither. I did have documentation showing exactly what was accomplished on the checkout, including the fact that I had reviewed the need to be flight current and to hold a current medical certificate and flight review. I didn' t provide a flight review at the time, and wasn't about to go backdate a signature saying I had.

The person who crashed didn't hold a current medical certificate, nor did that person hold a current flight review. The person wasn't flight current. The crash occured at a remote location during a crosswind landing.

I was able to step clear using detailed notes of exactly what I had said and done, including specifically having detailed my direction to the individual about being legal and current to fly.

You can't have enough detailed information. If you give an hour or two of instruction regarding cross country flight, or the use of an ADF, or whatever...note specifically what instruction was given and make a logbook entry. Make it detailed. One might later try to say that instruction was given in the use of the VOR and ADF when providing cross country instruction, for example. But if it's not detailed that way in the logbook entry, a student might suggest that the instruction was never received.

Making an entry to the effect of "Provided John Doe with 2.0 hours of instruction in cross country flight planning, use of VOR, ADF, and pilotage, aircraft performance planning, filing of flight plans, yada, yada, yada...," as opposed to simply stating that cross country instruction was provided. Including the details may save your bacon in court of with the FAA on day, or merely stave off insurance lawyers. You never know. Log it.

 

[pilotman2105]

To make a rash generalization, it seems that the more you document, the more likely you'll be able to cover your a$$ in the unlikely event you're questioned. Both in aviation and other fields. I've had several instances at work, which is not aviation related, where just my notes were a help in covering me in situations that arose years later.

If I ever use my CFI ticket extensively (which I'm not sure of yet), I plan on making sure to log in some bit of detail what was covered on both ground and flight lessons. Avbug's experience shows how important this can be.

 

[scubabri]

I'll have to look, but I think I log it as PIC.. but only when I am on the left side of the student

sb

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

A question to you veteran CFIs - how do you manage to log all this when you are going one after another with students? Like now our CFIs are flying 7+ hours per day average, along with the ground. How do you manage to keep everything logged & in order when the turnover rate is this high?
Thanks for all replies by the way.

Fly safe,
TA

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I'll have to look, but I think I log it as PIC.. but only when I am on the left side of the student

sb

Shiaaat you can log it PIC no matter where you are in the classroom, even if there are more than two of you doing ground.

 

[JediNein]

Absolutely I do log ground time in the student's logbook and track it in my records (PDA notes + Logbook Pro 4 PDA + Quickbooks 4 PDA). Our local FSDO/CFI Inspector made it quite clear that the FAA considered this to be a hot button item & they would be processing violations on those CFIs that did not comply.

The CFIs that attended the get-together where this was discussed never considered logging ground to be anything other than standard.

Those active local CFIs that did not attend have been advised, and same with this message board---you've been warned.

BTW, anyone other than CA CFIs noticing a trend towards an immediate 709 ride required of a CFI involved in an incident or accident? Does it seem that the Inspectors are scheduling the ride even before the wreckage stops smoldering from the accident?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Matterhorn]

"A question to you veteran CFIs - how do you manage to log all this when you are going one after another with students? "


TA-

You just have to make time for it. schedule a little more post flight time. I know this is easier said than done but it will C.Y.A. in the long run.

 

[nosehair]

By not logging ground, you are documenting insufficient training. Nothing ever happens with that unless there is an accident and the family wants to sue.
If the training was done by a person or school with money, and they don't have the training well documented, the lawyer will win. If the training was conducted by an individual with no money (typical CFI) then no lawsuit will result, except in the most obvious cases of insufficient training, which would probably result in criminal charges.
This is the time worn habit pattern of training/logging.
If you've got somthing to lose, document and log all training in detail. If you have nothing to lose, don't be too concerned about it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

how do you manage to log all this when you are going one after another with students?

I use an in-flight kneeboard-sized form for all flight instruction. It lists all of the PTS tasks with space to check off or grade the ones we covered in a lesson. The heading area includes the usual logbook numerical categories, including a box for ground time.

For me, the advantage is that I can document far more for one lesson, whether flight and/or ground, than can fit on a full logbook page, let alone in a single "maneuvers, etc." area.

From a record-keeping standpoint, it serves the same general function as the Jepp-style folder, but is more flexible. And it's in NCR duplicate, gets signed by both me and the student, so it becomes a permanent record for both of us.

I have graphics of it here (excuse the pop-ups; it's an auxiliary site)

http://midlifeflight.tripod.com/cfi_stuff/index.htm

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

Mark,

Do you have those forms made for you somewhere locally or do you order them from a pilot supply store?

 

[BoDEAN]

If I do a ground session with my Part 61 guys, I put it in the back of their log books. There are a few pages for "Ground Instruction" already in the logbook

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Mark,

Do you have those forms made for you somewhere locally or do you order them from a pilot supply store?

I'd like to know also.

If I do a ground session with my Part 61 guys, I put it in the back of their log books. There are a few pages for "Ground Instruction" already in the logbook

Do you keep any documentation for yourself?

 

[BoDEAN]

No, not really.
I have copy of JEPP sylabus, that I make notes on with the date saying what I did.

 

[Lead Sled]

That's probably wouldn't provide you with enough protection in the event of an FAA investigation or lawsuit. Unfortunately, it's a requirement of the times we live in. Remember - CYA.

Lead Sled

 

[BoDEAN]

Maybe I should reread the thread, and get a better system on "my" end then.............. thanks for the heads up