Cfii - Ipc

[Flyin Tony]

A friend of mine just got his CFII and has not flown in a cloud for over a year. Does the II checkride count as a IPC. (i dont think he will be going into any clouds untill he goes up with a CFII) I havent found anything in the FARs that have any INFO about this.
thanks Tony

 

[flyer172r]

I don't think the regs address that issue. Ask the examiner who gave him his CFII checkride, they might know.

 

[CDVdriver]

Yes, it is.

It may not be literally in the regs but 61.57(d) .." consisting of a representative number of tasks required by the instrument rating practical test"...
Which your CFII checkride is...
(d)(2) The instr. prof. check must be given by:
(i) an examiner....voila
So the combination of these 2 would make your CFII an IPC.
And that's what I used when I got my CFII.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There's no absolutely clear answer on this, but I would start with a "no" assumption and play it safe.

We're in an area similar to whether a CFI practical test counts as a FR. While there is a strong argument about this, there is a strong line of thinking, supported by the FAA Regional Counsel in NY, that due to the differentiation throughout the FAR between "pilot" certificates and "CFI" certificates, no "CFI" check automatically counts as a "pilot" proficiency check.

So, the safest course is to go to the DE or to the CFII who signed you off for the II ride and ask if one of them wouldn't mind giving you an IPC endorsement.

 

[flyflorida2001]

The answer is a definate maybe!

I'm in a similar position. I recently got my CFII and was not instrument current (I had the requirements, but had let my currency and the 6 month grace period lapse). The CFII checkride CAN count as a IPC...BUT...Only if the examiner signed it off as one. The applicant can go back to the examiner and ask him/her to endorse him as having completed an IPC, but if the endorsement didn't occur, it is NOT an IPC.

 

[kclark]

A friend of mine just got his CFII and has not flown in a cloud for over a year. Does the II checkride count as a IPC. (i dont think he will be going into any clouds untill he goes up with a CFII) I havent found anything in the FARs that have any INFO about this.
thanks Tony

I would say Yes.

Because the CFII is just an instrument rating added on your flight instructor certificate. So your instrument currency would start the date of the check ride. This would also be the date you start your BFR currency.

Call your local FSDO and ask them. See what they say.

 

[flyflorida2001]

I agree with the previous post, in that the checkride would count towards currency...and since you would have done at least 6 appchs, holding, and intercepts while getting ready for the checkride, you would likely be current following the checkide....HOWEVER....if you had let the 6 month currency AND 6 month grace period lapse (as I did) before you start working on your CFII, and you do not get an instructor to sign off on an IPC, then you are NOT current no matter how many appchs you have done in the past 6 months. You still need the instructor to sign off on having done an IPC (and yes, the checkride would meet all the requirements if you can get the examiner to sign off on it.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would say Yes.

Because the CFII is just an instrument rating added on your flight instructor certificate. So your instrument currency would start the date of the check ride. This would also be the date you start your BFR currency.

You need to look at some of the threads on BFR currency and CFI rides. The most current FAA view, based on an FAA Regional Counsel interpretation and repeated in the Part 61 FAQ, is that a CFI ride does =not= restart BFR currency unless it is accompanied by a FR endorsement, for exactly the reason you said: it involves a "flight instructor certificate" not a "pilot certificate" That's what I was referring to in my earlier post.

 

[kclark]

You need to look at some of the threads on BFR currency and CFI rides. The most current FAA view, based on an FAA Regional Counsel interpretation and repeated in the Part 61 FAQ, is that a CFI ride does =not= restart BFR currency unless it is accompanied by a FR endorsement, for exactly the reason you said: it involves a "flight instructor certificate" not a "pilot certificate" That's what I was referring to in my earlier post.

FAA view is going to change from each section of the country. Each FSDO has their own way of doing things.

Technically that Part 61 FAQ is not legal interpretation. So I went ahead and emailed an aviation lawyer on the subject. I'll post his response.

I check the NTSB's website for any cases reguarding this issue and found none. If someone has access to westlaw or lexis, I'm sure something can be found on there.

Anyway I'll be you posted.

 

[midlifeflyer]

FAA view is going to change from each section of the country. Each FSDO has their own way of doing things.

Technically that Part 61 FAQ is not legal interpretation.

But the FAA Regional Counsel opinion is.

And you state the real problem perfectly. Until there is a uniform national position taken by the FAA, do you want FAA action against =your= certificate to depend on where an incident happens? Let's say you normally fly in the ABC FSDO region and they say you don't need the separate endorsement. Then you have a simple runway incursion incident at Teterboro and the FAA decides to view you logbooks and finds that, according to the official regional legal counsel interpretation, you are not current.

 

[igneousy2]

The local FSDO opinion counts almost as little as my opinion.

 

[transpac]

The local FSDO opinion counts almost as little as my opinion.

Not really cause they're the ones who decide whether or not to file a violation. Even if it later gets thrown out, it's still a major hassle.

Personally i doubt that a CFII check automatically counts for an IPC. The checks have different purposes and different standards. If the DE sees enough to determine the applicant's overall instrument profiency during the check, the DE should sign off an IPC in addition to the CFII check.

 

[kclark]

Still no response from the laywer.

but I was digging a little deeper into the BFR issue.

61.56 (d)

A person who has within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certifcate, RATING, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

Now if you got to 14 CFR FAR Part 1 and look up the definition of rating.

Rating means a statement that, as part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privleges, or limitations.

Note is does not say 'pilot certificate'. There fore a BFR is not required if you earn your flight instructor certificate, or add a rating to that instructor certificate.

 

[transpac]

Still not response from the laywer.


A person who has within the perdio specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certifcate, RATING, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

Now if you got to 14 CFR FAR Part 1 and look up the definition of rating.

Rating means a statement that, as part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privleges, or limitations.
.

I believe you're emphasing the wrong term in the FAR. The key term is PILOT PROFICIENCY CHECK. The remainder of the reference merely mentions the different types of pilot proficiency checks that may be credited toward a flight review. A CFI check is not a pilot proficiency check and a flight instructor certificate or rating is not a pilot certificate or rating.

P.S. I thought the issue was an IPC???

 

[kclark]

I believe you're emphasing the wrong term in the FAR. The key term is PILOT PROFICIENCY CHECK. The remainder of the reference merely mentions the different types of pilot proficiency checks that may be credited toward a flight review. A CFI check is not a pilot proficiency check and a flight instructor certificate or rating is not a pilot certificate or rating.

P.S. I thought the issue was an IPC???

It was about an IPC check, and there was some discussion about BFR as well, if you read the entire thread.

 

[rubberducky]

This thread looks like John Kerry's campaign, "yes, no, definite maybe..."

 

[A Squared]

FAA view is going to change from each section of the country. Each FSDO has their own way of doing things.

There's certainly some truth to that, although it shouldn't be that way. At any rate, the FSDO does not decide what is legal and waht is not. that is decided by the FAA counsel

Technically that Part 61 FAQ is not legal interpretation. .

THis is true, and it's an important point that shold be kept in mind when reading the FAQ. THere are some things in the FAQ which are just flat out wrong. This *particular* item in the FAQ is a direct verbatim quote of an interpretation from some office of regional counsel (Eastern region, I think), and as such it *IS* an official legal interpretation. Regional counsel is not "the FSDO", they answer to the office of chief counsel.

Note is does not say 'pilot certificate'. There fore a BFR is not required if you earn your flight instructor certificate, or add a rating to that instructor certificate..

Well, actually it *does* specify pilot certificate. Furthermore when it says Pilot certificate, rating or operating privelige, it does mean pilot certificate, pilot rating or pilot operating privelige. Otherwise completing a 121 flight engineer PC (non pilot PC for non-pilot operating privelige) or adding an Airframe rating to your Mechanic's certificate would both count as a BFR.

A flight Instructor checkride is not for a Pilot dertificate, it's not for a pilot rating and it is not for an operating privilege of any kind.

Regardless of how strongly you beleive this is not true, the fact remains that FAA counsel has issued an interpretation on the matter and until that is changed or overruled, that is the law.

 

[igneousy2]

This is typical FAA B.S. slippery slope logic that they ALWAYS get themselves into because they try to be so black and white instead of just using common sense.


Your CFI/II checkride does not count as a BFR/IPC because it is not a PILOT checkride, however, that very same checkride allows you to grant BFR's/IPC's to other PILOTS.

That's B.S.

I say it counts until I see an interpretation from the FAA counsel that says otherwise.

Later

 

[kclark]

Can someone post a link to the FAA Counsel stating CFI doesn't can't as BFR and CFII doesn't restart your instrument currency. Thanks

 

[A Squared]

The full text of the Legal interpretation is below.

Here's the cruical statement: "Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement."


"Per se" is latin (lawyers love that stuff) for "by itself" . Note this interpretation says nothing about CFII and IPC. that's a seperate issue, and honestly without researching it a little, I don't know which way that one would go.

1 Aviation Plaza
Room 561
Jamaica, NY 11434
RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,



Loretta E. Alkalay