Cfii - Ipc

[rubberducky]

This thread looks like John Kerry's campaign, "yes, no, definite maybe..."

 

[A Squared]

FAA view is going to change from each section of the country. Each FSDO has their own way of doing things.

There's certainly some truth to that, although it shouldn't be that way. At any rate, the FSDO does not decide what is legal and waht is not. that is decided by the FAA counsel

Technically that Part 61 FAQ is not legal interpretation. .

THis is true, and it's an important point that shold be kept in mind when reading the FAQ. THere are some things in the FAQ which are just flat out wrong. This *particular* item in the FAQ is a direct verbatim quote of an interpretation from some office of regional counsel (Eastern region, I think), and as such it *IS* an official legal interpretation. Regional counsel is not "the FSDO", they answer to the office of chief counsel.

Note is does not say 'pilot certificate'. There fore a BFR is not required if you earn your flight instructor certificate, or add a rating to that instructor certificate..

Well, actually it *does* specify pilot certificate. Furthermore when it says Pilot certificate, rating or operating privelige, it does mean pilot certificate, pilot rating or pilot operating privelige. Otherwise completing a 121 flight engineer PC (non pilot PC for non-pilot operating privelige) or adding an Airframe rating to your Mechanic's certificate would both count as a BFR.

A flight Instructor checkride is not for a Pilot dertificate, it's not for a pilot rating and it is not for an operating privilege of any kind.

Regardless of how strongly you beleive this is not true, the fact remains that FAA counsel has issued an interpretation on the matter and until that is changed or overruled, that is the law.

 

[igneousy2]

This is typical FAA B.S. slippery slope logic that they ALWAYS get themselves into because they try to be so black and white instead of just using common sense.


Your CFI/II checkride does not count as a BFR/IPC because it is not a PILOT checkride, however, that very same checkride allows you to grant BFR's/IPC's to other PILOTS.

That's B.S.

I say it counts until I see an interpretation from the FAA counsel that says otherwise.

Later

 

[kclark]

Can someone post a link to the FAA Counsel stating CFI doesn't can't as BFR and CFII doesn't restart your instrument currency. Thanks

 

[A Squared]

The full text of the Legal interpretation is below.

Here's the cruical statement: "Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement."


"Per se" is latin (lawyers love that stuff) for "by itself" . Note this interpretation says nothing about CFII and IPC. that's a seperate issue, and honestly without researching it a little, I don't know which way that one would go.

1 Aviation Plaza
Room 561
Jamaica, NY 11434
RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,



Loretta E. Alkalay

 

[kclark]

Thanks! I stand corrected!

 

[igneousy2]

Why can't lawyers just speak english.

 

[midlifeflyer]

A person who has within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, RATING, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

Try it this way:

A person who has within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

What kind of certificate? A pilot certificate.
What kind of rating? A pilot rating.
What kind of operating privilege? A pilot operating privilege.

Not a CFI rating, not an mechanic's rating, not a truck driver's rating, but a pilot rating.

At least that's what the FAA Eastern Regional Counsel says.

 

[kclark]

Figured I'd post the reponse from the laywer.


"
I have now researched this issue a bit more. I think my initial thoughts were correct. An initial CFI applicant can use the checkride to count for the flight review, but it would be advisable to also have the examiner make the flight review endorsement in the airman's logbook as well, to ensure that they have "credit" for it. This would also be the case if a CFI renewed or reinstated his CFI cert. through a check-ride; get the additional endorsement to be sure. A seminar (or online, etc) renewal would only count toward the one-hour of ground instruction requirement as the pilots flying skills were not evaluated.

A renewal of the CFI cert through an FAA inspector based on your pass rate etc. would not count for the one-hour of ground however.

I also think that a CFII checkride would only count as an IPC if the pilot flew the necessary items for the IPC and the examiner endorsed the applicant's logbook for the IPC. Without an IPC endorsement, I don't think that the issuance of a CFII certificate starts the six month period over.

This information is not intended to be legal advice as I have not researched the matter as completely as I would if I was your attorney providing you with a legal opinion. This was an interesting question....kind of some "gray areas" involved here. Hope this information helps."

 

[A Squared]

Kclark,

thanks for passing on the advice from your lawyer. Not to pick nits, but your lawyer's advice is incorrect, or at least worded in a misleading manner

Figured I'd post the reponse from the laywer.


"
An initial CFI applicant can use the checkride to count for the flight review, but it would be advisable to also have the examiner make the flight review endorsement in the airman's logbook as well, to ensure that they have "credit" for it.

It's not merely "advisable to get you logbook signed, it is required. otherwise it doesn't count. The FAA's position is black and white. By itself a CFI checkride does not count. It must be endorsed as a flight review *also*

 

[Matterhorn]

We have been having this argument at our school too. The conclusion we've come up with is NO the checkride does not count for a flight review or an IPC unless the examiner signs it off as such. CFI certificates are different from pilot certificates.

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc

This FAQ forum gets cited allot by our FSDO and DPEs and I've found it to be both helpful and confusing. (Like most reg related stuff nothing is crystal clear)

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not to pick nits, but your lawyer's advice is incorrect, or at least worded in a misleading manner

It's the same problem as the wording in John Lynch's FAQ. "Yes, but you also need the endorsement" means the exact same thing as "No" but is just not worded as well.

 

[jimtrustycfi]

Cfii

Let's not overlook the BIG question. If this guy does NOT do clouds, how in the world is he going to prepare a student for the real IFR world? Whether he is certificate legal or not is moot.

He is taking money from students under false pretenses. Shame on him!


(Lrn2Fly)

 

[Flyin Tony]

There was a KEY WORD in my post jimtrustycfi "untill he goes up with a CFII"