CFI Renewal/Reinstatement

[iflyjets4food]

Ok, here's the deal. I was arguing with the local DPE about CFI reinstatements. He was telling me that all renewals or reinstatements had to be done in a complex airplane. I argued that the regs say if I have an expired CFI, and I take a checkride for any rating listed on said expired certificate, the Instrument rating for example, then my entire certificate is reinstated. The checkride for the instrument instructor doesn't require a complex airplane. The DPE was telling me that if I was already an instrument instructor, I couldn't take another II checkride. Where am I wrong here? In any event, the DPE is completely hardheaded and unwilling to listen to suggestion, so the ride would have to be done elsewhere, but is this an option? Thanks.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Find another DPE.

Of course doing the ride elsewhere is an option. I'm not sure what you mean by "the local DPE." Is there only one in your area that is certified for CFI rides? Even if so, your certificates are issued by the FAA which, as I'm sure you know, is a =national= not local organization. Go somewhere else.

 

[iflyjets4food]

Can I do the II ride to reinstate the CFI in an airplane that isn't a complex?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The practical test for renewal/reinstatement only needs to be a “single showing of proficiency.” And for any of the airplane ratings (ASE, AME, or IA) can be done in a non-complex airplane such as a CE-172. No written required. If you had all seven CFI ratings on your CFI certificate then just a test in any one of those will bring back all seven.

6. GENERAL PROCEDURES FOR RENEWAL OR REINSTATEMENT. The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
A. Endorsement Not Required. A flight instructor endorsement is not required for the renewal or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate except IAW the provisions of § 61.49 for a retest.
B. Expiration Date. A flight instructor certificate is renewed or reinstated with an expiration date 24 calendar months after the month of renewal/reinstatement or the month of expiration of the current :flight instructor certificate, provided the provisions of § 61.197(a) are accomplished within the three calendar months preceding the expiration month of the current flight instructor certificate.
C. Examiner Qualifications for Renewal Tests of Applicants with Multiple Category Ratings. In order to conduct a practical test for the renewal of a flight instructor certificate with more than one aircraft category rating, an examiner must hold FIRE authority or be designated in at least one of the categories of aircraft on the flight instructor certificate to be renewed.
D. Renewal of All Ratings. An applicant may renew all ratings on a current flight instructor certificate by satisfactorily completing one practical test. Also, the satisfactory completion of a practical test for an additional flight instructor rating constitutes the renewal of a flight instructor certificate.

Questions/Comments are welcome….

 

[Amish RakeFight]

you could get an MEI and that would take care of it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Can I do the II ride to reinstate the CFI in an airplane that isn't a complex?

Yes. There is nothing in the CFI-I PTS that requires a complex airplane, so there can be nothing in the retest.

As Undaunted points out, you don't =really= need to take a CFI-ASE retest in a complex aircraft either, subject to the catch in bold

6. GENERAL PROCEDURES FOR RENEWAL OR REINSTATEMENT. The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.

If the PTS for the CFI rating you choose to take the test for has tasks that require a complex airplane then the Examiner would be well within his rights to ask for them. But that's something you work out in advance with the Examiner.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The PTS intro section contains a chart that shows exactly what is be on the test. I have never heard of an examiner requiring a complex airplane or anything else beyond what is required. There is no point in that. The only way he/she would make such a request is if that person (the examiner) isn't really familiar with the CFI renewal/reinstatement equipment requirements.
That person may be new or something like that. No examiner wants their tests to be harder than necessary.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The PTS intro section contains a chart that shows exactly what is be on the test. I have never heard of an examiner requiring a complex airplane or anything else beyond what is required.

But, unless I missed something else inthe PTS, if we're talking about the ASE, the CFI PTS requires the performance of at least 2 takeoff and 2 landing tasks and the PTS requires that

==============================
A complex airplane must be furnished for the performance of takeoff and landing maneuvers, and appropriate emergency procedures.
==============================

Of course, iflyjets4food is talking about doing an instrument ride which has no such requirement.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

But, unless I missed something else inthe PTS, if we're talking about the ASE, the CFI PTS requires the performance of at least 2 takeoff and 2 landing tasks and the PTS requires that

==============================
A complex airplane must be furnished for the performance of takeoff and landing maneuvers, and appropriate emergency procedures.
==============================

Of course, iflyjets4food is talking about doing an instrument ride which has no such requirement.

May sound reasonable to you but I can only say that any examiner who says that you must bring a complex airplane for a CFI renewal/reinstatement for an airplane single-engine test (ASE) is just incorrect. At least that is based on my 17-years of doing DPE work. This subject has been addressed in the annual DPE meetings many times.

 

[iflyjets4food]

All he said was that his new DPE handbook revision tells him he has to use a complex.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

All he said was that his new DPE handbook revision tells him he has to use a complex.

I've got the new handbook and it doesn't say anything about using a complex aircraft on CFI renewal/reinstatement rides.

 

[AK47]

I've got the new handbook and it doesn't say anything about using a complex aircraft on CFI renewal/reinstatement rides.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/7f85cd99697aa59d86256f700076ed32/$FILE/87103D-C14.pdf

FAA Order 8710.3D Chapter 14, Section 1, Subsection 4:

​

4. PRACTICAL TEST. [FONT=AMJCOG+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]The examiner shall conduct the practical test for original issuance, additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate IAW the appropriate Flight Instructor Practical Test Standards (PTS). The examiner may also require the applicant to demonstrate knowledge and skill from other PTSs that may include private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, or instrument rating PTS, appropriate to the rating sought.
[/FONT][FONT=AMJDBJ+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]
A. Required Use of a Complex Airplane.

(1) [/FONT][FONT=AMJCOG+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]For the issuance of a flight instructor certificate for a rating in the airplane category, a complex airplane must be used to perform takeoffs, landings, and emergency operations that are appropriate to complex airplanes. [/FONT]
[FONT=AMJCOG+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]
[/FONT]

 

[nosehair]

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/7f85cd99697aa59d86256f700076ed32/$FILE/87103D-C14.pdf

FAA Order 8710.3D Chapter 14, Section 1, Subsection 4:



4. PRACTICAL TEST. [FONT=AMJCOG+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]The examiner shall conduct the practical test for original issuance, additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate.....
[/FONT][FONT=AMJDBJ+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]


A. Required Use of a Complex Airplane.

(1) [/FONT][FONT=AMJCOG+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]For the issuance of a flight instructor certificate for a rating in the airplane category, a complex airplane must be used .....[/FONT][FONT=AMJCOG+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]
[/FONT]

...."for the issuance"....not for "additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement"...

 

[midlifeflyer]

...."for the issuance"....not for "additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement"...

Interesting. So the DPE manual says not to do something the PTS requires. Not necessarily wrong, since the PTS is really just a guide for DPEs anyway. Just interesting.

 

[JAFI]

You guys need to read a little further:

Order 8710.3D​

CHAPTER 14. CONDUCT A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR PRACTICAL TEST FOR AN INITIAL, RENEWAL, REINSTATEMENT CERTIFICATION, OR AN ADDITIONAL CATEGORY/CLASS RATING TO A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE​

SECTION 1. BACKGROUND​

6. GENERAL PROCEDURES FOR RENEWAL OR REINSTATEMENT.
The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
--------
This means the Exaniner (or Inspector) gets to pick what exam (which determines which aircraft) they wish to test for. You can always pick another Examiner.....
JAFI

 

[AK47]

...."for the issuance"....not for "additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement"...

but it doesn't say "... for the original issuance ..." like in "... for original issuance, additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement ..." which may lead to interpretation as "for any type of issuance", whether "original" or "reinstatement".

 

[nosehair]

Well,...OK, if you want to argue it that way. I was just trying to show you where and how the rest of the world interprets this.

 

[AK47]

Well,...OK, if you want to argue it that way. I was just trying to show you where and how the rest of the world interprets this.

It is funny that you are trying to argue with me, even using the mighty "the rest of the world" argument. And all I did in my original post was providing the exact reference to 8710.3D without offering any interpretation, leaving it to the reader. You offered one interpretation and I suggested that there may be another one.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

This means the Exaniner (or Inspector) gets to pick what exam (which determines which aircraft) they wish to test for.
JAFI

No the applicant chooses which exam he/she wants to take. The examiner only chooses which tasks are to be tested and there is even guidance in the PTS for limiting this too.

And as I have said before, no complex aircraft required for CFI ASE renewal/reinstatement.

What is it that some of the Board members can not understand about this?

 

[11thHour]

I had an expired CFI/CFII/MEI. I reinstated it last December. The DPE said I could choose whatever portion I wanted and it would reinstate all 3. I did the CFII in an Archer, and a couple months later I got the new CFI/II/MEI cert. in the mail. Piece of cake.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
--------
This means the Exaniner (or Inspector) gets to pick what exam (which determines which aircraft) they wish to test for. You can always pick another Examiner.....

I think you're misreading that, JAFI. The Examiner gets to pick the portions of the Practical Test. The applicant gets to choose which practical test.

Of course, that's just what =this= part of the puzzle says. The PTS itself goes on to say =which= portions need to be done. The DPE manual specifies still other requirements. And then, as Undaunted points out, there are procedures that DPEs follow that don't appear anywhere and seem to contradict others that do.

 

[iflyjets4food]

So essentially, I can take the CFII ride in a Cessna 172, and it will reinstate my CFI and CFII. That's what I needed to know. I guess I'll have to find another DPE.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

So essentially, I can take the CFII ride in a Cessna 172, and it will reinstate my CFI and CFII. That's what I needed to know. I guess I'll have to find another DPE.

I think you understand but your terminology is not correct. There is really no such thing as a CFI rating, it is a certificate and the rating you are referring to is a CFI-ASE.

So to be correct you will be taking your CFI-I ride and it will reinstate your CFI-ASE. This is a reinstatment ride if it is expired and a renewal ride if your CFI certificate is still valid.

 

[iflyjets4food]

I think you understand but your terminology is not correct. There is really no such thing as a CFI rating, it is a certificate and the rating you are referring to is a CFI-ASE.

So to be correct you will be taking your CFI-I ride and it will reinstate your CFI-ASE. This is a reinstatment ride if it is expired and a renewal ride if your CFI certificate is still valid.

Ok, I appreciate the help.

 

[JAFI]

Midlife, Thank you for not adding to the belief that this site is really FI, -- Flight Insult.com. And you point is IMHO a valid one.

I looked at the guidance and could not find one reference that the applicant “picks” what exam they wish to take. Maybe someone else can find a specific reference?????

I can see your point that the reference I cited does not specifically list who picks the exam. But, the reference does say the Examiner is to determine “all or any portion of the flight instructor … test THAT THE EXAMINER DEEMS NECESSARY TO DETERMINE THE APPLICANT’S COMPETENCE…” The reference does not specify WHICH exam the examiner (or the applicant) can choose. As I read the guidance it is the Examiner that chooses how he/she wishes to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a Flight Instructor Certificate. Not what exam the applicant wants to take.


JAFI


The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.

 

[nosehair]

the reference does say the Examiner is to determine “all or any portion of the flight instructor … test THAT THE EXAMINER DEEMS NECESSARY TO DETERMINE THE APPLICANT’S COMPETENCE…” The reference does not specify WHICH exam the examiner (or the applicant) can choose. As I read the guidance it is the Examiner that chooses how he/she wishes to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a Flight Instructor Certificate.

This is how I see it, too. The renewal or reinstatement is the Flight Instructor Certificate - not the rating(s) on that certificate. The examiner decides which portions of the ratings on that certificate he/she will test - just like doing a Flight Review.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Midlife, Thank you for not adding to the belief that this site is really FI, -- Flight Insult.com. And you point is IMHO a valid one.

I looked at the guidance and could not find one reference that the applicant “picks” what exam they wish to take. Maybe someone else can find a specific reference?????

I think the answer is that the CFI is the applicant and applies to take the test. If not, if the examiner decided, then the examiner can choose any rating that was on the back of the CFI certificate, such as insisting that it be done in a multi or a glider or a helicopter

I think that this (a) just makes more sense and (b) is what the excerpted language says. I think "that the examiner deems necessary" modifies "all or any portion " not "the flight instructor practical test:"

==============================
The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant's competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
==============================
not
==============================
The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant's competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
==============================

(BTW, why would anyone toss an insult about that? I think both are fair reasings of what the words say. I just think I'm right because of the overall context, but I could be way off)

 

[midlifeflyer]

I just shot an email off to the Designee Standardization folks. With all of these various opinions and readings of the published sources, I though a Designee Update article would make sense.

We'll see.

 

[JAFI]

IMHO this is how it normally goes:

CFI - (to Examiner/Inspector) I let my CFI lapse and need a re-enstatement ride.

Examiner: How long has it been?

CFI: # of years.

Examiner: Wow, Where did you teach at? (general conversation and pre-assessment of applicant)

CFI: (lists experience)

Examiner listens and plans exam: We can do the re-enstatement in a (aircraft/glider/etc.) and it will take about X hours (or some qualifier).

CFI: agrees, - or says he will call when he is ready (waiting for thre correct amount of time to run with out looking too obivous).
----------------------------------------------------
Maybe this is all a discussion of the same interpitation but, we should not forget it is the Examiner/Inspector who has to sign on the dotted line...... so as I read the guidance the Examiner decides the exam.

Midlife, a e-mail to the Desigee folks is a good idea. They can put the answer in a future newsletter.

JAFI

 

[CFIse]

For once and for all, the DE does NOT decide what exam you take. You present yourself for re-certification with a completed 8710 which specifies which certificate or rating you are applying for. The DE will test you, within the boundaries of their discretion on the tasks of that certificate or rating.

Practically - any DE who's been giving exams for more than about a day can assess your readiness for both the checkride and to be a practicing CFI again in the first 10 minutes (or less) and then if they decide you don't need to be out there teaching people they'll find something, probably many things, and probably pretty quickly, to fail you on BASED ON THE REQUIRED TASKS OF THE EXAMINATION YOU APPLIED FOR.

Ten minutes with the FOI and whatever that bizarre pyramid of learning that I once knew, and most people would be a goner........