CFI Renewal/Reinstatement

[AK47]

...."for the issuance"....not for "additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement"...

but it doesn't say "... for the original issuance ..." like in "... for original issuance, additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement ..." which may lead to interpretation as "for any type of issuance", whether "original" or "reinstatement".

 

[nosehair]

Well,...OK, if you want to argue it that way. I was just trying to show you where and how the rest of the world interprets this.

 

[AK47]

Well,...OK, if you want to argue it that way. I was just trying to show you where and how the rest of the world interprets this.

It is funny that you are trying to argue with me, even using the mighty "the rest of the world" argument. And all I did in my original post was providing the exact reference to 8710.3D without offering any interpretation, leaving it to the reader. You offered one interpretation and I suggested that there may be another one.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

This means the Exaniner (or Inspector) gets to pick what exam (which determines which aircraft) they wish to test for.
JAFI

No the applicant chooses which exam he/she wants to take. The examiner only chooses which tasks are to be tested and there is even guidance in the PTS for limiting this too.

And as I have said before, no complex aircraft required for CFI ASE renewal/reinstatement.

What is it that some of the Board members can not understand about this?

 

[11thHour]

I had an expired CFI/CFII/MEI. I reinstated it last December. The DPE said I could choose whatever portion I wanted and it would reinstate all 3. I did the CFII in an Archer, and a couple months later I got the new CFI/II/MEI cert. in the mail. Piece of cake.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
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This means the Exaniner (or Inspector) gets to pick what exam (which determines which aircraft) they wish to test for. You can always pick another Examiner.....

I think you're misreading that, JAFI. The Examiner gets to pick the portions of the Practical Test. The applicant gets to choose which practical test.

Of course, that's just what =this= part of the puzzle says. The PTS itself goes on to say =which= portions need to be done. The DPE manual specifies still other requirements. And then, as Undaunted points out, there are procedures that DPEs follow that don't appear anywhere and seem to contradict others that do.

 

[iflyjets4food]

So essentially, I can take the CFII ride in a Cessna 172, and it will reinstate my CFI and CFII. That's what I needed to know. I guess I'll have to find another DPE.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

So essentially, I can take the CFII ride in a Cessna 172, and it will reinstate my CFI and CFII. That's what I needed to know. I guess I'll have to find another DPE.

I think you understand but your terminology is not correct. There is really no such thing as a CFI rating, it is a certificate and the rating you are referring to is a CFI-ASE.

So to be correct you will be taking your CFI-I ride and it will reinstate your CFI-ASE. This is a reinstatment ride if it is expired and a renewal ride if your CFI certificate is still valid.

 

[iflyjets4food]

I think you understand but your terminology is not correct. There is really no such thing as a CFI rating, it is a certificate and the rating you are referring to is a CFI-ASE.

So to be correct you will be taking your CFI-I ride and it will reinstate your CFI-ASE. This is a reinstatment ride if it is expired and a renewal ride if your CFI certificate is still valid.

Ok, I appreciate the help.

 

[JAFI]

Midlife, Thank you for not adding to the belief that this site is really FI, -- Flight Insult.com. And you point is IMHO a valid one.

I looked at the guidance and could not find one reference that the applicant “picks” what exam they wish to take. Maybe someone else can find a specific reference?????

I can see your point that the reference I cited does not specifically list who picks the exam. But, the reference does say the Examiner is to determine “all or any portion of the flight instructor … test THAT THE EXAMINER DEEMS NECESSARY TO DETERMINE THE APPLICANT’S COMPETENCE…” The reference does not specify WHICH exam the examiner (or the applicant) can choose. As I read the guidance it is the Examiner that chooses how he/she wishes to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a Flight Instructor Certificate. Not what exam the applicant wants to take.


JAFI


The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.

 

[nosehair]

the reference does say the Examiner is to determine “all or any portion of the flight instructor … test THAT THE EXAMINER DEEMS NECESSARY TO DETERMINE THE APPLICANT’S COMPETENCE…” The reference does not specify WHICH exam the examiner (or the applicant) can choose. As I read the guidance it is the Examiner that chooses how he/she wishes to determine the applicant’s competence to hold a Flight Instructor Certificate.

This is how I see it, too. The renewal or reinstatement is the Flight Instructor Certificate - not the rating(s) on that certificate. The examiner decides which portions of the ratings on that certificate he/she will test - just like doing a Flight Review.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Midlife, Thank you for not adding to the belief that this site is really FI, -- Flight Insult.com. And you point is IMHO a valid one.

I looked at the guidance and could not find one reference that the applicant “picks” what exam they wish to take. Maybe someone else can find a specific reference?????

I think the answer is that the CFI is the applicant and applies to take the test. If not, if the examiner decided, then the examiner can choose any rating that was on the back of the CFI certificate, such as insisting that it be done in a multi or a glider or a helicopter

I think that this (a) just makes more sense and (b) is what the excerpted language says. I think "that the examiner deems necessary" modifies "all or any portion " not "the flight instructor practical test:"

==============================
The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant's competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
==============================
not
==============================
The examiner may require an applicant for renewal or reinstatement to complete all or any portion of the flight instructor practical test that the examiner deems necessary to determine the applicant's competence to hold a flight instructor certificate.
==============================

(BTW, why would anyone toss an insult about that? I think both are fair reasings of what the words say. I just think I'm right because of the overall context, but I could be way off)

 

[midlifeflyer]

I just shot an email off to the Designee Standardization folks. With all of these various opinions and readings of the published sources, I though a Designee Update article would make sense.

We'll see.

 

[JAFI]

IMHO this is how it normally goes:

CFI - (to Examiner/Inspector) I let my CFI lapse and need a re-enstatement ride.

Examiner: How long has it been?

CFI: # of years.

Examiner: Wow, Where did you teach at? (general conversation and pre-assessment of applicant)

CFI: (lists experience)

Examiner listens and plans exam: We can do the re-enstatement in a (aircraft/glider/etc.) and it will take about X hours (or some qualifier).

CFI: agrees, - or says he will call when he is ready (waiting for thre correct amount of time to run with out looking too obivous).
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Maybe this is all a discussion of the same interpitation but, we should not forget it is the Examiner/Inspector who has to sign on the dotted line...... so as I read the guidance the Examiner decides the exam.

Midlife, a e-mail to the Desigee folks is a good idea. They can put the answer in a future newsletter.

JAFI

 

[CFIse]

For once and for all, the DE does NOT decide what exam you take. You present yourself for re-certification with a completed 8710 which specifies which certificate or rating you are applying for. The DE will test you, within the boundaries of their discretion on the tasks of that certificate or rating.

Practically - any DE who's been giving exams for more than about a day can assess your readiness for both the checkride and to be a practicing CFI again in the first 10 minutes (or less) and then if they decide you don't need to be out there teaching people they'll find something, probably many things, and probably pretty quickly, to fail you on BASED ON THE REQUIRED TASKS OF THE EXAMINATION YOU APPLIED FOR.

Ten minutes with the FOI and whatever that bizarre pyramid of learning that I once knew, and most people would be a goner........