CFI - Letter of Discontinuance (sp?)

[PHXAviator]

So, I took my 5 hour ORAL for the CFI checkride and PASSED!

After lunch we get in the airplane and taxi out.

Right as we're approaching the runup area, the examiner suggests that continuing the checkride could be a bad idea. There are these three huge thunderstorm cells closing in on the airport and the surrounding area.

I agree and I get a letter of discontinuance (sp?).

I retake the flying portion in a couple of weeks.

I'm somewhat relieved that the ride is halfway over and it should be a lot better flying without having to fly after 5 hours of talking! At the same time I still have the monkey on my back!
I guess you could call me a 1/2 CFI

By the way, why the hell does the FAA require the oral portion of the test be done first!

PHXAviator

 

[Aeronca]

I had the same thing happen to me. Finished the oral portion and the weather wasn't cooperating so the examiner issued the letter of discontinuance and rescheduled the flight portion. It was about two weeks after that I finally took the flight portion. I thought it was a relief to have the oral out of the way. Don't sweat it. I'd suggest you make sure you fly a couple of times per week to keep it fresh.

Good luck.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

A better question is why the heck do they put you through a 5 hour oral. Any examiner worth his salt should be able to tell after only a few minutes how sharp someone is. I can see maybe two hours, but 5? That just gets silly and repetitive. Three hours into mine I felt like saying "It's obvious by now that I know what I'm talking about, why are you still wasting my time and yours?!!" Besides, I was so nervous, I couldn't wait to get the flying part done! But I kept quiet, said "sir" a lot, and eventually he wrapped it up!

BTW, congrats on the oral. That's the hardest part, and you should be proud. It must be pretty hard waiting for the flight test, but it's not too bad. You'll be fine. The worst is over.

 

[bobbysamd]

½CFI

Congratulations on making it through halfway, anyway. I never heard of a "Letter of Discontinuance" before.

Long orals are very common for the CFI practical. There is one examiner in Scottsdale who is known to give eight-hour orals. It isn't that she's hard, but goes through every little thing. Three-hour orals are common. Anything less than that and either the examiner is perceptive or easy.

An eight-hour oral on a non-self-examining stage check for any rating is outrageous. I normally don't like to hear about students complaining about stage checks, but this was one time where you should have complained. On the other hand, given flight school politics, you might have cut off your nose to spite your face. I was known to give long orals when I was a stage check pilot, but never, ever, anything that long, for any rating.

Good luck with the flight.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

My CFI oral was about 3 hours if I remember correctly. I thought even that was ridiculous. I think the FAA pukes just like to harass pilots and that is one way they can do it.

When I went to my CFII checkride, I was the first dude to walk through the examiners door after the FAA had hammered him for an "excessively high" pass rate. Bad luck for me, needless to say, I hooked that one. I think he asked about 30 questions and I got the first 29 right and then BAM, "I'm going to have to pink slip you on this one." He didn't take any money for the first attempt and then when I went back for the retake, there was no ground eval and he still didn't charge me. I guess I had hooked that ride before I even showed up.

And for the smart CFI's here, my CFII has been expired for about 7 years now and I haven't logged a single hour in a civil airplane in 8 years. I would like to renew the CFI and if I remember correctly, since my cert is expired, I have to take another checkride. I don't have to do that with another bloodsucking FAA loser do I? Also, what sort of "syllabus" should I be looking for from a CFI to get prepared for the checkride? I have asked some local CFI's the same question and I got a little tired of the "gee, I don't know" response.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[bobbysamd]

CFI reinstatement

Three hours from the FAA? I think you got off fairly.

Yep, you do have to take another practical. But it can be in any aircraft in which you are qualified to fly. E.g., let's say you are an airplane, instrument and multi-engine instructor. You can take the flight in a 172.

The good news, for you, is you can go to your favorite DE who is a flight instructor examiner. So, you don't have to suffer an ASI who has to get his ticket punched.

You should get ahold of the PTS and use it as your study guide. You probably will be hit with the FOI, signoffs, regs and a lesson plan. I've heard that most examiners are pretty cool about a reinstatement. Just the same, as with any flight test, you have to be prepared.

Alternatively, you can add an instructor rating to your certificate and you will be reinstated for everything.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your reinstatement.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Thanks bro

 

[Bluto]

Add a rating?

Bobbysamd,
You're right on with the renewal process except for one thing. You cannot renew a CFI by adding a new instructor rating. You may only renew by passing a practical test for a rating already on your certificate.

§ 61.199 Expired flight instructor certificates and ratings.

(a) Flight instructor certificates. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate with the same ratings by passing a practical test as prescribed in § 61.183(h) of this part for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate.

 

[172driver]

My oral for private was nine hours and stretched over two days. It was given by an official FAA examiner and not a DPE. One reason it was so long is that he did a fair amount of teaching. I since have learned that if you rattle off complete answers to every question and show no weaknesses, the oral becomes much shorter. If you don't, the examiner is forced to dig. A five hour CFI oral doesn't seem excessive. Congratulations.

By the way, the FAA around here wouldn't suggest that the wx was too bad to fly. If you started the airplane with t'storms approaching you would've gotten a little pink card. Remember, you are becoming a CFI and those wx decisions are your responsibility. A large part of the flight is to test your decision making. I have seen commercial pilot applicants receive not only a pink slip but a 709 ride for making the decision to take off with t'storms approaching.

 

[surplus1]

To the maker of the thread --- congratulations on your oral. You'll do just fine on the flight phase. Best wishes.

I agree with FlyDeltasJets on this one. Anything over two hours for an oral is excessive. If the examiner can't determine that you know or don't know enough in a couple of hours, I would argue that he/she doesn't know enough or lacks confidence.

The only thing an eight hour oral tells me is that the examiner is an amatuer. Lesson plans aren't just for "instructors" they're for examiners too. Anyone trying to teach something, present something or learn something (oral) should have a plan of action. The only way it can take the examiner eight hours to find out what you know (or don't know) is if the examiner doesn't know how to do that an has no plan.

A new pilot seeking a first time certificate isn't going to do what I am about to say because there's a "fear factor", but I'll tell you honestly that I would never endure an eight hour oral. The examiner would get a "letter of discontinuance" from me long before we got to that point.

And yes, I've done that. The regs give you the right to discontinue the check ride at any time. Of course it goes without saying that you can't do that to "save the day" when you just blew something. It has to be done while you're ahead.

Flight checks, whether for a new rating or to demonstrate proficiency are not supposed to be an opportunity to intimidate or abuse the applicant. Marathon orals are both intimidating and abusive and should not take place.

 

[AZaviator]

By the way, why the hell does the FAA require the oral portion of the test be done first!

On my CFI checkride, I actually did my flight first, then did my oral afterward. The examiner wanted to get the flight overwith before it got too hot. This was out in San Bernardino, CA. Anyone else ever done the flight first?

 

[Flip]

I also had a letter of discontinuance issued on my CFI initial due to weather. The examiner explained that it was in case I decided to take the flight portion of the test with another examiner, (the letter explains what had already being done). Needless to say, I went back to the original guy.....didn't want the 4 hour oral to go to waste!!!!

 

[pipers]

When I did my CFI, the examiner told me that if I made it through the oral then I was almost pretty much guarenteed to pass the entire test. I guess in his opionion, the oral is the toughest part. Needless to say, I was quite relieved when he told me to meet him at the plane. Good luck with your flight.

 

[bobbysamd]

Re: Add a rating?

You may only renew by passing a practical test for a rating already on your certificate.

§ 61.199 Expired flight instructor certificates and ratings.

(a) Flight instructor certificates. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate with the same ratings by passing a practical test as prescribed in § 61.183(h) of this part for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate.

Let's say you are a Commercial glider pilot as well as an airplane pilot. You go for glider instructor. I always understood that doing something like that renews all your instructor ratings.

For surplus1: There are indeed examiners who give eight-hour orals for intial CFI applicants. The one I know in Scottsdale has been doing it for years and is revered in the local aviation community. I agree with you. I gave plenty of orals as a stage check pilot, and I could tell within the first few minutes if the examinee knew the material and was prepared.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: Add a rating?

.

For surplus1: There are indeed examiners who give eight-hour orals for intial CFI applicants. The one I know in Scottsdale has been doing it for years and is revered in the local aviation community. I agree with you. I gave plenty of orals as a stage check pilot, and I could tell within the first few minutes if the examinee knew the material and was prepared.

Bobby,

I don't doubt at all that it is happening. I still think it's absurd. Since I won't be in Scottsdale anytime soon (at least not to take an oral) I can avoid a collision with the individual. If I were there as an instructor, I would simply find another examiner and would not use that person. I'll bet if he/she had no one to abuse for awhile the eight hour orals would go away.

There's a lot of "revereing" in the industry that's less than justified. I have found that many FSDO types are "revered" simply because they wear that badge, which I see as misplaced reverence. Hopefully the person you mention has a lot more to offer than 8-hour orals that could justify the reverence while tolerating the absurdity.

 

[tdvalve]

As one who used to conduct a lot of CFI checkrides, maybe I can explain why some orals take so long. Number 1, the CFI is the most important certificate issued by the FAA. A marginal CFI can create a chain of circumstances that results in negative effects for decades. Most examiners and inspectors will go to great lengths to ensure the applicant knows what he or she is doing. Number 2, the examiner must ask questions from each area of the PTS. You're not allowed to ask a few questions in a couple of areas and assume knowledge there will transfer to all other areas. You'd be amazed to hear the myths and misconceptions that some otherwise knowledgable applicants have accumulated. Number 3, and possibly the most pertinent, most examiners don't want to fail applicants. Therefore, when a weak applicant shows up, the oral exam becomes a teaching session that lasts until the examiner is comfortable with the applicant's knowledge level. Sure, this isn't the way it's supposed to work and the FAA seriously frowns on this. But, some examiners will routinely revert to being a teacher in order to avoid issuing a pink slip. I doubt that a prepared applicant will ever receive an 8 hour oral.

 

[surplus1]

Number 3, and possibly the most pertinent, most examiners don't want to fail applicants. Therefore, when a weak applicant shows up, the oral exam becomes a teaching session that lasts until the examiner is comfortable with the applicant's knowledge level. Sure, this isn't the way it's supposed to work and the FAA seriously frowns on this. But, some examiners will routinely revert to being a teacher in order to avoid issuing a pink slip. I doubt that a prepared applicant will ever receive an 8 hour oral.

That I can understand fully. I would not call what you describe an
"eight-hour oral". To me, that sounds like a two hour oral plus a six hour period of instruction. Generous on the part of the examiner and worthy of praise.

I have to wonder however, how does it reflect on the recommending instructor when the applicant needs six hours of instruction to get past a two hour oral? Why would instructors recommend applicants that are not prepared?

IMHO the whole system is upside down. We in fact have the most inexperienced people in the field "teaching" that which they barely know themselves. I know this is controlled by economics in that instructors aren't paid enough, in most cases, to attract experienced pilots to the field. Apparently it works, but it sure is different from other fields.

There's an old canard in this area that goes something like this: "Those who can do. Those who can't, teach and those who can't teach, teach teachers." I think than came from Dr. Milton Horowitz, but not sure. The sad part is that it's true in very many cases.

 

[UPS Capt]

Bluto

You're right on with the renewal process except for one thing. You cannot renew a CFI by adding a new instructor rating. You may only renew by passing a practical test for a rating already on your certificate.

Sure you can.

My CFI had expired years ago. I went to a local DPE and he gave me a MEI ride as an add-on which renewed all my previous instructor ratings.

 

[Bluto]

Read part 61. You cannot renew that way. Either the DPE was wrong, or the reg is printed incorrectly. Part 61 is very clear on this. It may have been this way in the past, however, you cannot renew this way anymore. How else can you interpret 61.199?

 

[gump88]

Read part 61. You cannot renew that way. Either the DPE was wrong, or the reg is printed incorrectly. Part 61 is very clear on this. It may have been this way in the past, however, you cannot renew this way anymore. How else can you interpret 61.199?

I renewed last year by getting the MEI added!! My DPE said it is done all the time.

To the original poster of this thread: You should have gotten a pink slip. The few DPEs that I know would have stopped the ride the second you started taxiing with thunderstorms approaching the field. It's much better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground!

gump