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Cessna flies over white house, TFR

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vja217

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pasted from: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...20620/ap_on_go_pr_wh/white_house_evacuation_6

Anyone heard any more about this? If it's a rental 172 from Richmond, I've probably flown it :)


White House Briefly Evacuated
Wed Jun 19, 9:09 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House was briefly evacuated Wednesday night after a small plane failed to make radio contact with Reagan National Airport as it flew over the capital, officials said.

An F-16 military jet was scrambled and tracked the plane until it landed at the airport in Richmond, Va., law-enforcement and aviation officials said.

The evacuation was ordered 20 minutes after President Bush ( news - web sites) returned to the building from a Republican fund-raising event at the Washington Convention Center.

Bush remained in the White House throughout the evacuation, a senior administration official said.

Law enforcement officials said a Cessna plane was flying southwest in restricted airspace over the capital and failed to make radio contact with the control towers at Reagan National Airport. The plane then changed direction, prompting the Secret Service ( news - web sites) to end the evacuation.

In response, at least one F-16 was scrambled and tracked the plane until it landed, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Within 15 minutes of the evacuation, staff was allowed to return to the building.

It was the first evacuation of the White House since Sept. 11, when the building was thought to be a target of one of the hijacked jetliners used in the attack on New York and Washington.

The evacuation occurred just hours after a separate incident in which the nearby Federal Reserve ( news - web sites) building was evacuated because of a suspicious package, which turned out to be harmless.
 

tarp

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Just what General Aviation doesn't need!

All over the news this morning especially in the Wash, DC area. All the same stuff about how "easy" it is for terrorist types to steal our planes and use them as weapons.

This morning the news was that he was "lost" and avoiding weather. Well, it so happens that I was flying my own bug smasher in the DC area yesterday. I am familiar with our class "B" airspace. I also get weather briefings even for my "local" flight.

This guy was from Boston (so I'm going to assume he knows something about Class "B"). The weather had a weak, almost "gust" front passing through the area. It created the normal DC area airmass T-storms which are widely scattered at this time of the year. All the T-storms were over in the area by 12:00 noon and the afternoon stayed as a hazy, DC day.

Now here's my beef with the guy. Even our lousy TV reporters got the part that he was at 10,500 feet in his C-182.

Ten - five just tops the DC area Class "B" which goes up to 10K even. So he was 500feet above the Bravo in a C-182. Well, my normal job is not flying my bug smasher, but flying a jet. I hate thinking about some idiot playing the "hey I'll just fly over this congested airspace" game. It's a C-182. Top speed 145mph. Climb rate = about 350fpm all the way up to 12, 500 when you either run out of airplane or oxygen. So, for all you newbies out there - let's just think about the class "B". You've got jets just breaking out of 10,000 and putting the coals on our beautiful Pratts, GE's and RR engines. I'm looking to accelerate from 250kts to 300 in a heartbeat. I just came out of the top of the Class B like a Cobra out of a jar. Do you really think I want basically a floating piece of aluminum floatsam (a slow moving GA target) sitting in my acceleration zone? NOT. Yes, it's going to cost you 15 minutes to go around the sides of the Bravo - do it!

Then, a guy from Boston. BOSTON. Did he not see the news? How could a pilot from Boston not know about all the TFR's that were created post 9/11? Has he been in a box for six months? I can't get through a single Boston security portal without taking off everything but my pants due to the fact that Boston was one of the gateway cities for 9/11. How can this guy not know about TFR's?

I really can't stand this stuff. Lost? He's at 10,500 ft. With a huge bay (the Chesapeake) off his left wing. A huge city below with this amazing rectangle of green with sparkling white buildings right in the middle (I'm talking here about the Washington Mall where the White House, Capital, and all those government buildings stand out like a sore thumb. I can't think of a single city that has this landmark - cruising at FL270, I can look out my window and see the mall distinctly.

Dodging T-storms? Really? In a C-182? I have to keep my jet 20 miles from the storms. What are you doing near the service ceiling of an airplane trying to dodge t-storms? He was trapped with 2,500 ft of manuevering space horizontally. Can't go below 10,000 and can't really climb. What was he going to do as an "out" if another t-storm popped up? When did he make his decision that he was going to move a little west to avoid weather?

I'm just mad when I see this kind of behavior. This is the one scenario when I'm glad he's going to spend all day talking to the military, the secret service and the FAA. This pilot's license is a privledge, not a "right". Don't abuse it.

Sorry - rant over.
 

cvsfly

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Stuff like this will be the death nell of general aviation. People like this think they have right to go anywhere they want and if they screw up its their butt. Well it isn't. The s*** rolls downward and effects us all eventually. When we can we should police our own, before someone else does it. The major burden is on CFIs. There are no excuses for this. His license should be revoked and he should face jail time or at the very least get a bill from the AF/ANG for the scrable of the F-16s.
 

aggiepilot87

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tarp said:
Just what General Aviation doesn't need!

Agreed - it looks bad.

Ten - five just tops the DC area Class "B" which goes up to 10K even. So he was 500feet above the Bravo in a C-182. Well, my normal job is not flying my bug smasher, but flying a jet. I hate thinking about some idiot playing the "hey I'll just fly over this congested airspace" game. It's a C-182. Top speed 145mph. Climb rate = about 350fpm all the way up to 12, 500 when you either run out of airplane or oxygen. So, for all you newbies out there - let's just think about the class "B". You've got jets just breaking out of 10,000 and putting the coals on our beautiful Pratts, GE's and RR engines. I'm looking to accelerate from 250kts to 300 in a heartbeat. I just came out of the top of the Class B like a Cobra out of a jar. Do you really think I want basically a floating piece of aluminum floatsam (a slow moving GA target) sitting in my acceleration zone? NOT. Yes, it's going to cost you 15 minutes to go around the sides of the Bravo - do it!

Spoken like a true airline pilot! The rules allow VFR flight over the Class B with a mode C xponder. It's not gray. If someone chooses to overfly the Cl B, deal with it. Make sure your TCAS is working and look out. how many high altitude mid-airs have happened between civillian planes? none (~>10,000') that I'm aware of. Is this that great of a risk?

How can this guy not know about TFR's?

Agreed. Punnish violators severely.

Dodging T-storms? Really? In a C-182? I have to keep my jet 20 miles from the storms. What are you doing near the service ceiling of an airplane trying to dodge t-storms? He was trapped with 2,500 ft of manuevering space horizontally. Can't go below 10,000 and can't really climb. What was he going to do as an "out" if another t-storm popped up? When did he make his decision that he was going to move a little west to avoid weather?

the guy obviously made a major stupid decision stumbling through the airspace. But best I can tell, a C-182A-D is good to 19,800' abs ceiling. -182Q abs clg is 14,900'. That'd give it at least 12-13,000' svc ceiling. His decision to overfly the Cl B doesn't sound too bad to me.

This pilot's license is a privledge, not a "right". Don't abuse it.

Agreed that people need to think cleary and must be responsible for their actions. But your point above about flying being a privledge is something that is perpetuated in the minds of people who allow the government to ignore the Constitution. Something can be a right and still subject to reasonable controls and limitations (can't holler fire in a crowded theater). The word choice and people's perspective matters, IMO.

enjoy your flight!
 

Flint

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I heard on the news this morning, "No charges will be filed". That is amazing. You bust a restricted zone, not to mention one of the most important zones, and you walk...

Hell, the FAA comes after me because I checked the wrong box on a medical form by accident. It took weeks to clear that one up. Really sad :(
 

DC9stick

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It said no charges would be filed, I would take that to mean criminal charges, it doe's not mean that the FAA will not take administrative action, such as suspension or revocation of his pilot certificate. The FAA has taken a hard line on this issue and has recomended that inspectors go for the maximum penalty authorized.
 

TWA Dude

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tarp said:
I hate thinking about some idiot playing the "hey I'll just fly over this congested airspace" game. ... Do you really think I want basically a floating piece of aluminum floatsam (a slow moving GA target) sitting in my acceleration zone? NOT. Yes, it's going to cost you 15 minutes to go around the sides of the Bravo - do it!

Class B airspace exists to keep the little guys away from the big guys. So now we should block off all the space around that airspace to protect bugsmashers from you? Just let it be. The sky's big enough for all of us.
 

Timebuilder

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I don't know about you, but I'm out of that area of DC class B long before I reach 10k feet. I'm popping out the side of that airspace, leaving this bozo behind to face the attack helicopters.

I was in the P/H flight planning room at IAD yesterday, waiting for that storm cell to decide to leave TEB. The Gulfsteam captain behind me was on the phone to the tower, asking him if this little military exercise was going to affect his ability to get out of Dulles. From what I could gather, the tower guy hadn't heard about this situation, or at least he wasn't letting on that he knew. The only delay I experienced was an hour in the rwy 30 runup block because of delays into Newark.

From what I understand, the Cessna was in the expanded, "TFR" area, and not the traditional prohibited area. He wasn't really "over the Capital". Still, we need to be very vigilant about these issues, becuase they will affect flying for years to come.
 

capt_zman

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Timebuilder,

Did you make it into TEB yesterday? I blasted off around 5:30 in the middle of sh!t. What FBO do you go to?
 

dlwdracos

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tarp said:


Now here's my beef with the guy. Even our lousy TV reporters got the part that he was at 10,500 feet in his C-182.

So, for all you newbies out there - let's just think about the class "B". You've got jets just breaking out of 10,000 and putting the coals on our beautiful Pratts, GE's and RR engines. I'm looking to accelerate from 250kts to 300 in a heartbeat.
[/QUOTE


Tarp you are an A$$. What do you think, you own the sky? Get over yourself.
 

publisher

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ludicrous

This whole thing that anyone who is a terrorist would pay any attention to restricted airspace is ludicrous.

The fact is that any of these areas are vulnerable in a free country. Down here putting restrictions over Pro Player stadium is a good example. We can steal the Blockbuster 737, take off and be over the stadium in what --30 seconds. Who thinks that they can protect from this type of thing.

An aircraft from South America comes into FLL and diverts, who are we kidding. We have a bunch of people who want to pass laws to restrict us when the terrorists could not care less. As Israel proves daily, there is no protection from people willing to die.
 

Timebuilder

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I made it to TEB, alright, but I didn't arrive at IAD until late afternoon. P/H is the abbreviation I use for Piedmont.

After things quieted down at Newark, we were allowed to leave our little "pen" at IAD, and it was after 10:30 local when we hit First at TEB. I see they have the new "NetJets" sign up.

Actually, the FBO I go to varies by customer. I guess they all have their favorites. I think the new Jet Aviation building is pretty nice. Have you seen it?

I understand Tarp's point. We rely on the fact that folks in and around, and above, class B airspace to have their excrement together, be in contact with ATC, and respond accordingly. Somebody wandering about is a danger to other aircraft, and a high speed collision is almost always fatal. Sunday afternoon I passed over the NY "B" VFR, and I was spending ALL of my time looking outside for those who weren't landing in NY or NJ. That reminds me....I heard on the radio that there was an accident or incident at East Hampton on Father's Day. Does anyone have info on this?
 

aggiepilot87

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Timebuilder said:
I understand Tarp's point. We rely on the fact that folks in and around, and above, class B airspace to have their excrement together, be in contact with ATC, and respond accordingly.

Fast flying has done funny things to your thought process I guess... I can buzz around ALL DAY LONG just above, below and beside the Class B (with my mode C) without talking to a soul. Like I said above - them's the rules. Since that's how it's played, turn on your TCAS and look out... or slow down if it's still too dangerous.

Somebody wandering about is a danger to other aircraft, and a high speed collision is almost always fatal.

Be carefull around the HOU Cl B, I do a lot of "wandering" around that area. Other aircraft? be sure *you* aren't playing with your FMS not looking around when you go blasting through the wall of the Cl B. I'll be out there NORDO and no Xpdr in my J-3. It would be dangerous for us both under such a high closure speed situation and someone not looking! Sorry, but I'm hearing jet-arrogance in your post.
 

StarChecker

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Anybody see Miles O'Brian (I think that's his name...Miles something) on CNN today. He was explaining the C-182 because he's a "pilot" so CNN uses him as their resident expert sometimes.

He proceeded to explain how a C-182 holds 3 THOUSAND..yes... THOUSAND pounds of fuel and suggested how dangerous a situation this was. Unbelievable...I wanted to reach through the TV and strangle him.....douche.

And I do find it amazing that anyone...given the world situation...could wander into the prohibited space around Washington...regardless of weather. I know everyone screws up...but that's a some screw up.
 

Timebuilder

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Not quite, Aggie.

I was explaining what a good pilot would choose to do, not what a pilot would do who feels like taking chances in and around busy airspace.

Long ago it was pointed out to me that just because it is legal to do something doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do. You are always safer when you are a participant in the system. Suppose I am being vectored to avoid you in the climb at 250 knots, and someone steps on the ATC call, and I miss it. Next, the controller may have to give both of us a call to avoid a mishap. Do you think it would help to be in contact with him? TCAS is great, but most of the older jets not being used in 121 service don't have this little marvel.

What you are hearing is airspace survival, not jet arrogance. I learned about safety at age 11 in a Tri Pacer. On the days I fly a piston single, I am always aware that I am a slow moving target, in both the radar and ballistic senses of the word. I use every tool that I have in order to ensure, as much as is possible, the safe outcome of every flight. In short, I don't limit my options by believing that the regualtions will keep me safe. As PIC, that safety is my responsibility.

Flying a J-3 is real flying. Live to do it for many years to come.
 

tarp

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Back from another day with the bugsmasher.

To those who accused me of arrogance or other things (thank you Mr. Dracos), I think you have it wrong. It's just the opposite. I'm not that good! I don't trust myself in a small single engine airplane hovering over congested airspace trying to keep out of the way of bigger iron. Just like I don't trust that my eyes are so good that I can pick out a C-172 at 10,000 ft with a busted xpndr (that he doesn't know is busted). ala the comment about the J-3 who is warning me that we still have a requirement to visually scan to see and avoid. I heed that warning all too well.

Yes, the regs allow me to do this. You know the regs also allow me to fly my airplane at less than 1200agl in Class G with one mile viz, but if I'm not breaking out from an instrument approach, you don't find me doing that either. Yet I know tons of pilots that quote that reg to me as a "hey, I can fly in the pattern" or "hey, I'm just scud running over to Joe's airport".

I'm not looking for tighter regulations, I'm looking for pilots to shelf their egos and try giving some higher margins in the interest of safety. Forgive me. So for all of you who think I'm trying to close down airspace or restrict things only to the airline pilots - I'm not.

But on the other hand, I am looking for pilots to consider what I do in my bugsmasher and that is to give my fellow pilots in the high-speed iron a break. I try not to get in harms way. I've been radar vectored throught BWI airspace in my bugsmasher at 2,500 and been told that there's a SWA B-737 at 3,000 making approach to RWY 33L. I'm all eyes and I push the nose down just a little so that the radar and the TCAS show 600ft of separation instead of just five. I know what its like to have a VFR target called to me and watch it suddenly eat up 200 ft of the 500ft sep. we are supposed to have.

You know I fly around the DCA Class B all the time. I could give the Secret Service a thrill and fly within 0.1 of a mile of the Camp David TFR/P-40 with my Garmin. But I don't. I could fly at 2,000ft all the way around the 12 mile DME ring at 12.1, but I don't. I could fly at 6,000ft back and forth between FDK and MRB airports causing 747's and J-41's to deviate around me as they descend on the ROBRT FMS transition, but I don't. Everyone of these things are legal but they cause problems for someone else in aviation and if I screw up just one little bit, then I'm in trouble too.

I wear both hats and I'm not that good. I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings - I was basically mad at the Boston guy who I understand got in his airplane this afternoon and continued to Raleigh. From what I understand, the Secret Service, FBI and the FAA told him don't do it again and have a nice day. At this moment, he is not threatened with any certificate action (news from a FSDO friend).

Have a good night guys, fly safe.
 

aggiepilot87

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Re: Not quite, Aggie.

Timebuilder said:
I was explaining what a good pilot would choose to do, not what a pilot would do who feels like taking chances in and around busy airspace.

The conclusion I'm taking from this thread is that it is dangerous for an aircraft (jet or otherwise) to leave Class B airspace at speeds significantly greater than light GA planes. The regs allow their presence, therefore I have to assume that to be most safe, you folks need to slow way down.

Long ago it was pointed out to me that just because it is legal to do something doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do.

Then leaving the Class B at anywhere near 250 kts is legal, but not smart?!

You are always safer when you are a participant in the system.
I would generally agree, if the system could accomodate everyone. It would collapse if all VFR planes were guaranteed flight following and guaranteed separation. We had a glimpse of this overload after September 11th when all flights were requried to file in and out of enhanced Class B. I noticed lots of delays and frustration, and this was only a fraction of the possible total VFR traffic..

Suppose I am being vectored to avoid you in the climb at 250 knots, and someone steps on the ATC call, and I miss it. Next, the controller may have to give both of us a call to avoid a mishap. Do you think it would help to be in contact with him?

No. I don't have a transponder in my J-3 and ATC has no idea I'm there. All that would keep us separated is our eyes.

On the days I fly a piston single, I am always aware that I am a slow moving target, in both the radar and ballistic senses of the word.

Radar? I don't think it matters to radar waves if you're in a Citation X or a PA-22. Relative speed means no more to the slow plane than the fast one. Closure rate is closure rate. You closing on me head on at 250-kts with me flying at 60-kts makes no more difference than two planes closing at 155-kts each. Actually, you should be more concerned about collision with another fast plane. You'll have less time to see and react with two fast planes closing on each other than a fast plane closing on a slow one.

As PIC, that safety is my responsibility.
as it is mine too.
 

dlwdracos

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tarp said:
Back from another day with the bugsmasher.

To those who accused me of arrogance or other things (thank you Mr. Dracos), I think you have it wrong. It's just the opposite. I'm not that good! I don't trust myself in a small single engine airplane hovering over congested airspace trying to keep out of the way of bigger iron.

Put yourself in the position of a GA pilot, who is flying the most expensive hunk of metal his wallet can afford (in my case that a 90knot C-150).

Its a lot like the truck driver on a two lane highway you get stuck behind that slows down to 50 on every hill, and speeds up to 90 on the back side. You cant get around him without driving 90 because he will catch up with you. Its an insane sesaw ride because that A$$ thinks he owns the road.

Do you enjoy sharing the road with guys like this?
 

Timebuilder

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The REAL World

>>The conclusion I'm taking from this thread is that it is dangerous for an aircraft (jet or otherwise) to leave Class B airspace at speeds significantly greater than light GA planes. The regs allow their presence, therefore I have to assume that to be most safe, you folks need to slow way down.

You have reached an erroneous conclusion. Jets climb at this speed for a whole host of reasons. One is safety of traffic: almost all of the planes in the area are faster than piston planes. If we slow down, we remain in someone's flight path too long. That's why I am concerned about a slow moving target. Closure rate means nothing compared to the fact that the controller expects me to vacate his airspace in an expected period of time. If I don't, I might get "bit" on the a**. You see, class B is predicated on the expected abilities, speed included, and the expected nature of the vast majority of planes using the system. I'll be frank here, my friend. If I took a 60 knot plane with no xponder and no radio near class B airspace, I would consider myself to be flirting with disaster. It would be both legally correct, and unwise.

The 250 knot climb is not only wise, but often expected. Sometimes, control will dictate 210, and during congested approaches into north Jersey, 190 or even 170. The "safe" speed is the one you are expected to use. Having all of the jet traffic slow down because there is a J-3 tooling around on a sunny afternoon may sound fair and equitable, but it won't work in The Real World.

There are a great many reasons why the VFR traffic was a problem after September 11th. The first was security, but in reality, by creating procedural "windows" for VFR trafic leaving the enhanced class B, they had a great number of slow airplanes in a small area, and they remained in the area for a longer time before they were safely beyond the outer ring. This may have been the best encouragement of all to get GA VFR pilots to get that instrument rating. During the 90 days following the attack, having that ability to file and fly IFR was worth its weight in gold.

>>No. I don't have a transponder in my J-3 and ATC has no idea I'm there. All that would keep us separated is our eyes.

I'm a little surprised that you would be so willing to put yourself in this jeopardy, not to mention others, just because the regs say you can. 'nuff said.

>>Actually, you should be more concerned about collision with another fast plane. You'll have less time to see and react with two fast planes closing on each other than a fast plane closing on a slow one.

I'm concerned about ANY collision, fast or slow. The outcome will be the same. That's why I expect that an informed, experienced pilot will go beyond "legal" to "reality" and use the system as much as possible. I've flown an Aeronca L-16, and the guy has an Icom portable set up to enhance his safety. I think that's smart. A slower aircaft will remain in my flight path for a longer period of time than a faster one. If we are closing, head to head, it means that several mistakes have already happened. Being in a high traffic area without a mode C return and a radio, in my view, is a mistake that can be the first mistake in an accident chain.

As PIC, I hope that you will maximize your safety, and the safety of others by going beyond what the regs say, and attain the highest level possible.
 
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dlwdracos

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Re: The REAL World

Timebuilder said:
If I took a 60 knot plane with no xponder and no radio near class B airspace, I would consider myself to be flirting with disaster. It would be both legally correct, and unwise.



I believe you can not fly within 30 miles of a Class B airspace unless you have a Mode C XPONDER. Correct? Then this senario is a moot point. We will be on the radar if we are legal, and a mere inconvience for you hotshot jet jock's.
 
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