Cessna flies over white house, TFR

[tarp]

Back from another day with the bugsmasher.

To those who accused me of arrogance or other things (thank you Mr. Dracos), I think you have it wrong. It's just the opposite. I'm not that good! I don't trust myself in a small single engine airplane hovering over congested airspace trying to keep out of the way of bigger iron. Just like I don't trust that my eyes are so good that I can pick out a C-172 at 10,000 ft with a busted xpndr (that he doesn't know is busted). ala the comment about the J-3 who is warning me that we still have a requirement to visually scan to see and avoid. I heed that warning all too well.

Yes, the regs allow me to do this. You know the regs also allow me to fly my airplane at less than 1200agl in Class G with one mile viz, but if I'm not breaking out from an instrument approach, you don't find me doing that either. Yet I know tons of pilots that quote that reg to me as a "hey, I can fly in the pattern" or "hey, I'm just scud running over to Joe's airport".

I'm not looking for tighter regulations, I'm looking for pilots to shelf their egos and try giving some higher margins in the interest of safety. Forgive me. So for all of you who think I'm trying to close down airspace or restrict things only to the airline pilots - I'm not.

But on the other hand, I am looking for pilots to consider what I do in my bugsmasher and that is to give my fellow pilots in the high-speed iron a break. I try not to get in harms way. I've been radar vectored throught BWI airspace in my bugsmasher at 2,500 and been told that there's a SWA B-737 at 3,000 making approach to RWY 33L. I'm all eyes and I push the nose down just a little so that the radar and the TCAS show 600ft of separation instead of just five. I know what its like to have a VFR target called to me and watch it suddenly eat up 200 ft of the 500ft sep. we are supposed to have.

You know I fly around the DCA Class B all the time. I could give the Secret Service a thrill and fly within 0.1 of a mile of the Camp David TFR/P-40 with my Garmin. But I don't. I could fly at 2,000ft all the way around the 12 mile DME ring at 12.1, but I don't. I could fly at 6,000ft back and forth between FDK and MRB airports causing 747's and J-41's to deviate around me as they descend on the ROBRT FMS transition, but I don't. Everyone of these things are legal but they cause problems for someone else in aviation and if I screw up just one little bit, then I'm in trouble too.

I wear both hats and I'm not that good. I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings - I was basically mad at the Boston guy who I understand got in his airplane this afternoon and continued to Raleigh. From what I understand, the Secret Service, FBI and the FAA told him don't do it again and have a nice day. At this moment, he is not threatened with any certificate action (news from a FSDO friend).

Have a good night guys, fly safe.

 

[aggiepilot87]

Re: Not quite, Aggie.

I was explaining what a good pilot would choose to do, not what a pilot would do who feels like taking chances in and around busy airspace.

The conclusion I'm taking from this thread is that it is dangerous for an aircraft (jet or otherwise) to leave Class B airspace at speeds significantly greater than light GA planes. The regs allow their presence, therefore I have to assume that to be most safe, you folks need to slow way down.

Long ago it was pointed out to me that just because it is legal to do something doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do.

Then leaving the Class B at anywhere near 250 kts is legal, but not smart?!

You are always safer when you are a participant in the system.

I would generally agree, if the system could accomodate everyone. It would collapse if all VFR planes were guaranteed flight following and guaranteed separation. We had a glimpse of this overload after September 11th when all flights were requried to file in and out of enhanced Class B. I noticed lots of delays and frustration, and this was only a fraction of the possible total VFR traffic..

Suppose I am being vectored to avoid you in the climb at 250 knots, and someone steps on the ATC call, and I miss it. Next, the controller may have to give both of us a call to avoid a mishap. Do you think it would help to be in contact with him?

No. I don't have a transponder in my J-3 and ATC has no idea I'm there. All that would keep us separated is our eyes.

On the days I fly a piston single, I am always aware that I am a slow moving target, in both the radar and ballistic senses of the word.

Radar? I don't think it matters to radar waves if you're in a Citation X or a PA-22. Relative speed means no more to the slow plane than the fast one. Closure rate is closure rate. You closing on me head on at 250-kts with me flying at 60-kts makes no more difference than two planes closing at 155-kts each. Actually, you should be more concerned about collision with another fast plane. You'll have less time to see and react with two fast planes closing on each other than a fast plane closing on a slow one.

As PIC, that safety is my responsibility.

as it is mine too.

 

[dlwdracos]

Back from another day with the bugsmasher.

To those who accused me of arrogance or other things (thank you Mr. Dracos), I think you have it wrong. It's just the opposite. I'm not that good! I don't trust myself in a small single engine airplane hovering over congested airspace trying to keep out of the way of bigger iron.

Put yourself in the position of a GA pilot, who is flying the most expensive hunk of metal his wallet can afford (in my case that a 90knot C-150).

Its a lot like the truck driver on a two lane highway you get stuck behind that slows down to 50 on every hill, and speeds up to 90 on the back side. You cant get around him without driving 90 because he will catch up with you. Its an insane sesaw ride because that A$$ thinks he owns the road.

Do you enjoy sharing the road with guys like this?

 

[Timebuilder]

The REAL World

>>The conclusion I'm taking from this thread is that it is dangerous for an aircraft (jet or otherwise) to leave Class B airspace at speeds significantly greater than light GA planes. The regs allow their presence, therefore I have to assume that to be most safe, you folks need to slow way down.

You have reached an erroneous conclusion. Jets climb at this speed for a whole host of reasons. One is safety of traffic: almost all of the planes in the area are faster than piston planes. If we slow down, we remain in someone's flight path too long. That's why I am concerned about a slow moving target. Closure rate means nothing compared to the fact that the controller expects me to vacate his airspace in an expected period of time. If I don't, I might get "bit" on the a**. You see, class B is predicated on the expected abilities, speed included, and the expected nature of the vast majority of planes using the system. I'll be frank here, my friend. If I took a 60 knot plane with no xponder and no radio near class B airspace, I would consider myself to be flirting with disaster. It would be both legally correct, and unwise.

The 250 knot climb is not only wise, but often expected. Sometimes, control will dictate 210, and during congested approaches into north Jersey, 190 or even 170. The "safe" speed is the one you are expected to use. Having all of the jet traffic slow down because there is a J-3 tooling around on a sunny afternoon may sound fair and equitable, but it won't work in The Real World.

There are a great many reasons why the VFR traffic was a problem after September 11th. The first was security, but in reality, by creating procedural "windows" for VFR trafic leaving the enhanced class B, they had a great number of slow airplanes in a small area, and they remained in the area for a longer time before they were safely beyond the outer ring. This may have been the best encouragement of all to get GA VFR pilots to get that instrument rating. During the 90 days following the attack, having that ability to file and fly IFR was worth its weight in gold.

>>No. I don't have a transponder in my J-3 and ATC has no idea I'm there. All that would keep us separated is our eyes.

I'm a little surprised that you would be so willing to put yourself in this jeopardy, not to mention others, just because the regs say you can. 'nuff said.

>>Actually, you should be more concerned about collision with another fast plane. You'll have less time to see and react with two fast planes closing on each other than a fast plane closing on a slow one.

I'm concerned about ANY collision, fast or slow. The outcome will be the same. That's why I expect that an informed, experienced pilot will go beyond "legal" to "reality" and use the system as much as possible. I've flown an Aeronca L-16, and the guy has an Icom portable set up to enhance his safety. I think that's smart. A slower aircaft will remain in my flight path for a longer period of time than a faster one. If we are closing, head to head, it means that several mistakes have already happened. Being in a high traffic area without a mode C return and a radio, in my view, is a mistake that can be the first mistake in an accident chain.

As PIC, I hope that you will maximize your safety, and the safety of others by going beyond what the regs say, and attain the highest level possible.

 

[dlwdracos]

Re: The REAL World

If I took a 60 knot plane with no xponder and no radio near class B airspace, I would consider myself to be flirting with disaster. It would be both legally correct, and unwise.

I believe you can not fly within 30 miles of a Class B airspace unless you have a Mode C XPONDER. Correct? Then this senario is a moot point. We will be on the radar if we are legal, and a mere inconvience for you hotshot jet jock's.

 

[Timebuilder]

I submit to you the following ficticious sequence of events:

You are in a J-3, no radio, no transponder, and perhaps a very negligible primary target. You are moving at about the same speed as a large hawk in a descent. You are just outside the PHL class B, at the edge of the mode C veil, buzzing around the Pottstown VOR, and perfectly legal. The PHL departure controller doesn't see you, and is vectoring traffic westbound to "direct PTW". Visually, you are a very small target too, and the afternoon sun is blinding to most of the wesbound traffic.

Do you see how this can be a problem, easily corrected by a conscientious GA pilot?

Do you see a possibility of this being more than an inconvenience? I fly small piston singles, too. I feel a duty, every time I fly a small plane, to safely integrate myself using the idea of the Big Picture. Ask Phil Boyer about the pressure on general aviation these days, especially after this guy wanders around in TRF airspace. That's how this thread started. In short, every pilot needs to understand and respect the REALITY of today's airspace system, and act accordingly. Neither one of us OWNS the airspace, but we have to be very careful that we meet in the FBO, and not in the air.

OK?

 

[cvsfly]

Those of you (low time /inexperienced) who study the regulations and feel you can recite them verbatim and think if you stay within the letter of the law that you are operating safely have a rude awakening coming. Yes, we all must share the skies. Most of us started out in "bugsmashers" too. If you can't apply reason and decision making skills to the regulations and apply them to the real world, you would do us all a big favor to stay on the ground. Organizations like AOPA have worked real hard to keep the regulations we do have in check and not to be too overbearing on general aviation. Yahoos who think they have a right to mix it up with heavy iron and fast jets (who make a bigger economic impact than a C-182) just because it is legal will find one day that because some idiot violated restricted airspace because he thought he was a 100' outside of it that a new reg. gets passed and restricts those aircraft from ever flying above 10,000'. Just because a regulation says its so doesn't mean its safe. Under Part 91 you can take off in your legally equipped C-182 in 0/0 all day long. When you come crashing down on my house and hurt my family, you better already be dead.

 

[dlwdracos]

I submit to you the following ficticious sequence of events:

You are in a J-3, no radio, no transponder, and perhaps a very negligible primary target.......

Be realistic, how many J-3 cubs have you run into at 10,000 MSL? This post started out talking about a 182, that was squawking code. And we had some jet jock telling all us loser GA pilots to kindly get the hell out of his airspace. That my friend is just plane old BULLSPIT.

I doubt very seriously you will find many NORDO planes up at 10K, putting you in danger.

 

[dlwdracos]

Those of you (low time /inexperienced) who study the regulations and feel you can recite them verbatim and think if you stay within the letter of the law that you are operating safely have a rude awakening coming.

Yahoos who think they have a right to mix it up with heavy iron and fast jets (who make a bigger economic impact than a C-182) just because it is legal.........

Man, talk about your hot shot jet jock A$$HOLE. I rest my case.

I have as much right to that airspace as you jerk.