Centerline Thrust and getting hired

[citabriapilot]

Ok, here's a question for all you Guru's to ponder. I'm sure I'll get many different opinions.

I'm a CFI with 800TT and 15 multi (in a Seneca for my rating). I have an opportunity to fly for a 135 operator as a copilot in the Cessna Skymaster, which is centerline thrust. The operation runs for 4 months, and I will probably get 500 hours during that time. Since the company certificate requires two pilots (for the single pilot airplane) I can legally log SIC time and then any PIC time when I am the sole manipulator. All said, I would walk away with 1300TT and 515 multi.

Would this get me an airline interview/job when some are hiring at 1000 and 100 multi? I figure that all they care about is the time spend managing two powerplants. The only difference would be in an actual engine failure (which I spent 15 hours on getting my rating in the Seneca) and how many people with 900 and 100 have ever had a REAL engine failure in a twin?

Thanks

 

[chperplt]

I don't believe centerline thrust time will meet any airlines ME time requirement.

 

[barn stormer]

The FAA doesn't even count the skymaster as REAL twin time, so I doubt that the airlines will. If you did your multi engine training in a Skymaster, a limitation would be placed on your certificate limiting you to only the skymaster and any other push pull aircraft...

 

[OPECJet]

I've got over 500 hours in the Skydisaster. Interviewed at three different airlines both before and after the 11th. None of them cared that the airplane was centerline thrust. Its still a twin, still a dog on one engine just like conventional twins, just lacks the yaw associated with single engine ops.

Out of that over 500 hours, a little more than 70 is SIC. The autopilot didn't work in either of our aircraft. After a looong grace period granted to the company by the FAA, they finally decided we were never going to get it fixed, and an SIC was required for IFR operations. Between that, and the company wanting to fly the stupid thing more than 8 hrs per duty day, I got my checkride, and more time.

I'm curious under what circumstances you can log SIC in that airplane, other than what I did. I still carry around copies of my training records and duty sheets to show why I have SIC time in a 337. It is a little suspicious.

If you take the job, you'll enjoy flying the thing provided it isn't a clunker. It's a solid and stable airplane, just slow, loud, and not the prettiest girl at the dance. It is also a nightmare to keep the airplane in good shape, but if it is a nice one, you'll like it.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

suspicious is an understatement.

I would create a new logbook WITHOUT those 70Hrs. of SIC time in a Cessna Skymaster.

You can have all the checkride forms and duty sheets you want -- bottom line is you will stick out as the guy who has the SIC time in the Skymaster - and thats not good.

 

[citabriapilot]

-- bottom line is you will stick out as the guy who has the SIC time in the Skymaster - and thats not good

It's legal SIC time and 135 multiengine experience. Why is it not good to log time that you CAN legally log?

I emailed just about all the regionals and they said that it would be good experience and that they don't differentiate between multiengine and centerline thrust, so long as you don't have a centerline limitation, which I don't have and I don't even think the FAA gives out anymore.

I'm just trying to find out if anyone else has flown centerline thrust and been turned away for it.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

let me guess you are down in 55J. PM me and I'll give you some info.

 

[Lequip]

Skymaster SIC....PAH-LEEEZZZZZZ.

LMAO.

1st of all dumba$$.....you can't log SIC in an airplane unless the FAA requires a SIC....Doesn't matter what your stupid company requires.

Secondly...how much are you paying for the privledge of sitting in the right seat of the 337? Sounds like a shame to me if your operator requires 2 pilots in that egg beater. Do they have no faith in your Captains to fly a 337 all by them self?

 

[j41driver]

Skymaster SIC....PAH-LEEEZZZZZZ.

LMAO.

1st of all dumba$$.....you can't log SIC in an airplane unless the FAA requires a SIC....Doesn't matter what your stupid company requires.

If the FAA approved Ops Specs for your company say that all flights will be operated with two pilots then you're it is legal to log SIC time in aircraft that are single pilot certified. In this case it would be the FAA that is requiring it...not the "stupid company".

 

[OPECJet]

Secondly...how much are you paying for the privledge of sitting in the right seat of the 337? Sounds like a shame to me if your operator requires 2 pilots in that egg beater. Do they have no faith in your Captains to fly a 337 all by them self?

IF that comment was directed at me, I'm offended....

The FAA reuired our company to have an SIC because we had no working autopilots. The company wanted one there so we could fly 10 hours instead of 8. We did several trips that involved more than 8 hours of flying.

Yes, we had one captain that could not be trusted with that egg beater.

No, I did not pay to fly that POS. I was paid to fly it, and am still owed over a grand from the company since it folded. I've earned what little flight time I have. I'm not asking for a medal here, just want to be seen as someone who earned his way rather than bought his way.

 

[Strikefinder]

1st of all dumba$$.....you can't log SIC in an airplane unless the FAA requires a SIC....Doesn't matter what your stupid company requires.

I think the appropriate phrase here is that it is better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it to be so.

 

[Freighter]

ASA asks what % of twin is centerline thurst, so I'm assuming they care what kind of twin it is. Myself, I would never log that as SIC time even if your company and the FAA says its ok. It all comes down to if the plane requires 2 pilots. Either way its crap time in the log book when looking for a different job.

 

[328dude]

Couldnt agree more StrikeFinder.

My old company required a SIC on some of it's runs in the MU-2 as well as the government contracts. The FAA will come out and give you a SIC checkride if they require it.

 

[Lequip]

Shame time is when the aircraft certificate doesn't require a SIC. We all know it. You can justify it all you want but the fact is that here you are trying to justify it. Good luck picking up chicks as you step out the door of your 337 wearing 3 stripes.

 

[norskman2]

\Either way its crap time in the log book when looking for a different job.

Geez, how many times does it have to be said on this board? If the company's FAA-approved OpSpecs call for a SIC, it is legal and loggable as SIC time. End of story.

As far as it not helping when looking for a different job, try telling that to the many pilots who have gone through FAA-approved SIC programs like AirNet.

This is getting more tiresome than PFT...

 

[vclean]

Log what you like. It's an employers market, they can afford to be selective. SIC time in a small twin may be legal, but those few hours may stand out when your logbook is reviewed at an interview.

There has been several threads regarding logging simulator time. Since it's not ME, total or flight time, I and many others don't log it.

Point is don't log sim time improperly, log questionable SIC time or anything that would cause someone to look twice at an entry.

Log anything you want (Riddle's CAPT program is allowing observers to log time), just think about who might be on the other side of the table during an interview.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Getting your multi-engine rating in a centerline thrust twin is what triggers the centerline thrust limitation.

 

[j41driver]

... log questionable SIC time or anything that would cause someone to look twice at an entry...

IF THE FAA APPROVED OPS SPEC FOR THE COMPANY MANDATE THAT THERE ARE TO BE 2 PILOTS ON THE AIRPLANE THEN IT IS NOT QUESTIONABLE TIME!

I guess the only hangup with this is that the SIC would have to have a checkride (from the FAA or approved company DE) approving him for PT 135 SIC duties before logging such time.

 

[citabriapilot]

---Good luck picking up chicks as you step out the door of your 337 wearing 3 stripes.---

The operation isn't a charter/on demad operation, it is a Environmental whale survey that takes place for 4 months every year. The passengers are actually observers from the company that contracted the flights. So...no stripes, just shorts and a t-shirt.

The operation used to be operated Part 91 with a single pilot, but an accident over the Atlantic two years ago caused them to go 135 and write an Op Spec to require two pilots. Both pilots have a 135 checkride, so it is legal to log SIC time and PIC anytime I hold the yoke.

I'm not asking if its legal, just want to know if 1400 hours TT and 550 hours multi (with about 500 in skymasters, 250 of it as PIC) will get me a regional job over a 1000TT/100multi applicant, assuming equal knowledge and sim ride....

 

[ultrarunner]

Shame time is when the aircraft certificate doesn't require a SIC. We all know it. You can justify it all you want but the fact is that here you are trying to justify it. Good luck picking up chicks as you step out the door of your 337 wearing 3 stripes.

Good grief. Some people never listen.....

A properly qualified pilot may log SIC time when an SIC is required by REGULATION or OPERATING RULE.

Plain and simple: PIC doesn't have 'single pilot/autopilot' authorization, you need an SIC. Makes no difference in this example that the airplane is type certificated for one pilot. The OPERATING RULE applies.

 

[JetScreamDriver]

Sure it could get you job. Multi time is multi time. Obviosly everyone has a little different opinion about all the semantics of the issue, as could each person doing the interviews. It's not always about the numbers, but sometimes about the quality of experience. Of which the most valuable is good instrument experience.

I would just have adequate documentation of the SIC training. After that, no worries.

 

[WhiteCloud]

As long as you don't have a centerline thrust limitaion on your pilot certificate I doubt anyone will care. It's all ME piston twin time. Very few turbine operators care what your piston twin time is in as long as you can answer questions about the ME airplane you're currently flying the most. After you get some tubine time under your belt you'll view the piston twin time the same way you view your SE time. No one really cares what it's in. Good luck.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I dont care what is "legal" to log - Put whatever you want in your logbook!!

But if Im interviewing you and you have "skymaster SIC" time logged --- I wont hire you. Resume in trash and a few chuckles after you leave the room....NEXT CANDIDATE PLEASE.

How many other out there feel the same??

If I was you I wouldnt want to find out.

Is that worth the 70hrs of cheesy semi-multi time?


Jobs are hard enoughto get these days, dont mame yourself with this bull$hit time.

GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[WhiteCloud]

I dont care what is "legal" to log - Put whatever you want in your logbook!!

But if Im interviewing you and you have "skymaster SIC" time logged --- I wont hire you. Resume in trash and a few chuckles after you leave the room....NEXT CANDIDATE PLEASE.

How many other out there feel the same??

If I was you I wouldnt want to find out.

Is that worth the 70hrs of cheesy semi-multi time?


Jobs are hard enoughto get these days, dont mame yourself with this bull$hit time.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Usually a Gulfstream operator is looking for more than 500hrs of piston twin time so I wouldn't worry about not getting called in. Because enough people with some kind of hiring authority feel the way Gulfstream 200 does, it's a good idea to have all single pilot aircraft time "logged" as PIC or not logged at all.

 

[OPECJet]

So you would discount the rest of my "legitimate" flight time over the perfectly legal SIC time that accounts for very little of my overall flight time and experience? Sounds a little rediculous to me. If I were conducting the interview, I would definately have some questions that would need to be answered, but I can't say I would not hire someone based solely on that issue. I would definately want to know that the applicant knew the airplane, and wasn't just sitting in a seat for the sake of building time. At the same time, I'm not sitting one anyone's selection board either.

Yes, I'm aware of how difficult it is to get a job in this market. I've been trying for several years, and was just recently succesful. I would certainly hope that future prospective employers would look at my entire logbook and overall experience rather than just two pages.

 

[WhiteCloud]

---Good luck picking up chicks as you step out the door of your 337 wearing 3 stripes.---

a whale survey that takes place for 4 months every year.

 

[328dude]

Just do what you feel is right dude. Go with your gut....

 

[JediNein]

"Really, you flew a Skymaster, an actual 336!!! Did it fly in 'Nam?" -asked an interviewer who flew an O-2 in 'Nam

Any more questions?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[vclean]

You asked for different opinions. We aim to please. Log whatever you feel is legal and defensible. The first hurdle is the interview offer. Inventory your interview skills, background, FAR knowledge, systems knowledge (last multi flown) and flying ability (sim check, if req.). If your piston SIC is legal, log it. Just be able to justify the time if asked.

Search this board for interview threads and review your ability to answer common interview questions. Look for interview dos and don'ts. Study the FARs. Look for recent interview summaries for the various airlines you are interested in.

Apply early, apply often (variant of the Chicago voting policy).

 

[cvoav8r]

Dude, If you are serious about flying for a career and you want to fly for a good company someday, DO NOT... I repeat DO NOT put grey time in your book! Yes a little mold spoils the entire cottage cheese. GREY time includes SIC in anything where you have to prove it with an 8410, Safety pilot time, simulator time. It is simply not woth the risk to your life long career. You are better off working as a CFI that as a copilot in a C337. When I look over a applicants logbook and see grey time it is case closed, thank you for your time. Its an Integrity thing.