CE750 at NJA

[gunfyter]

Reality,

Your post sim NJA IPs teach the extra speed.

Then I had an IOE Capt that had me bring the speed back to the book numbers.

The extra speed helps with the roll and yaw as it can be hairy before you get used to the control feel on the older models especially. But after a certain number of hrs the extra speed is not necessary.

Touchdown at Vref or + you will tend to Bounce back up in the air as the landing attitude is approx same as t/o attitude. Touchdown at about ref -8 you will roll nicely down the rw. You will not float a long way down the rw if you come in at no faster than Vref... and touchdown a little slower to grease it on.

Wind gusts = possible wind shear to me. Ref+20 target speed. Reduce this speed after 200 AGL gradually to ref before TD. Don't reduce power to idle until you straighten the nose in the flair for touchdown or you will get a big surpris with loss of lift on the downwind wing.

 

[realityman]

Gun......I agree with basically everything you said. Bottom line: under most conditions the extra speed simply isn't needed, and in fact can cause certain problems in the landing.

I agree about the post sim instructors. Man, are they afraid of this plane. I don't get it. I had X recurrent a few months ago and the sim instructors at FSI are starting to insist on seeing REF across the numbers. Good on them! But landing in a crab? They're still teaching that (yes, I know, it's in the AFM) and I still say it's not a good thing.

As for gust factors, I still prefer the old REF + 1/2 the gust factor method. Again, REF + 20 doesn't hurt anything at fields with long runways, but I landed at SMO one day with a quartering headwind and very gusty winds (gust factors of something like 15 knots). I flew at REF + 8 for the gust factor. Not sure I'd be terribly comfortable landing at SMO at REF + 20.

I believe you were my sim partner for a X recurrent. If I remember correctly you flew way better than most of the folks I've flown with (and better than me, but only by a little ), so perhaps I will defer to abilities beyond mine.

Remember the Alamo!

 

[FLYLOW22]

I really don't care what the controllers at SFO say (BTW, never been yelled at by anyone for landing at the right speed), who's supposed to be flying this thing, the pilots or the controllers?

I HAVE been yelled at in SFO for just the very thing... one day while a X IOE guy was "showing me how to land the proper way" at SFO on 28R... at REF... of 106kts... stopping thousands of feet short of the 1L/1R intersection.

It was a beutiful 3 pronger ker splat... airplane hit hard due to a 20 kt gusty wind that gave up on us at 5 ft above the runway. REF plus.... (cough cough). SLAM!!!

Tried to tell him how SFO likes to run the show while on the arrival in. Eh, what did I know as a former 121 puke? I was only the Red Eye King back at Brand X for 3 years. SFO was my playground (no jokes here!!! ). 98.354% of the traffic that operates at SFO is of the heavier variety with a REF of 130-150ish. That is how they roll in their playground.

Sometimes you gotta play like the big kids at the playground... and at SFO, there is plenty of playground to land a bit fast, delay the reversers, roll past 1L/1R and turn off at D.

Come on Realityman... you remember.. doncha?!?!?

My only point is that there is a time and a place for literal SOP. Sometimes following SOP can lead you right into a mountain. Pilots gotta do pilot stuff sometimes!!

 

[pdub20s]

it prefer to go with my "feeling" when it comes to landings. I fly recommended approach speed(s) until i hit the fence then pull the power back, hold it in, etc. etc.. i just get a feel for the airplane and what it wants to do. i mean im no CJ driver like you folks..but i think what it all boils down to is...flying is flying... yes there are different number and sizes when it comes to a Seminole vs X..but when it comes down to stick and rudder...i think it goes back to your basic flying skills you've learned when you first got your commercial.

 

[Fozzy]

We at NJA really need a high speed approach profile. It kills me when I get with guys that pull back to ref+10 when we are lined up for 50+ miles to the runway. My God you don't need a 121 background to see how this will cause problems! Or maybe you do......
I must admit if fly the Uboat, I don't have the ego for the X. But regardless I see no reason to be going so damn slow before you get to 500 feet or so.

 

[realityman]

FLYLOW, crossing the numbers at REF speed doesn't mean you have to get on the brakes at SFO and come to a screeching halt in the first 2000 feet. I agree, that'll create a bit of friction with the controllers. But I hardly see how using the proper speeds on approach and landing, by themselves, would cause any problems.

I don't hear about our Ultra pilots being yelled at regularly by the SFO controllers, and the REF speeds of that plane are significantly slower than those of the X (I started in the Ultra, so I've got a pretty good idea what they are). A typical REF speed in the X is around 112-115kts. Typical in the Ultra is about 103. So if we need to fly the X at REF + 10 to keep the controllers happy at SFO, are you saying our Ultra boys need to cross the numbers at REF + 20, or more, to make them happy? That's a little out there. What's wrong with REF across the numbers, and then just idle reverse and light braking until passing the 1's at SFO? All good technique.

As for not always flying the SOP's and AFM numbers quite so literally all the time, I agree. Hence the reason I don't use the AFM recommended x-wind landing technique. I think it's dangerous and hard on the plane and everyone else.

Fozzy, who said anything about flying the approach at REF + 10 far from the runway. I think crossing the FAF and configured for landing would be a good time to slow to the proper approach speed, but that's typically only 5-8 miles from the runway. I'm not sure about maintaining high speeds until just a few miles from the runway though. Does slowing from REF + 40 to REF just 3 miles from the runway count as a stabilized approach?

Anyway, fly it like you know how. Different strokes for different folks. I expect as long as we don't ball one up, one technique is as good as another.

 

[skiandsurf]

It looks like I hit a nerve on this one. All this talk about Ref speeds, bank angles and whatever else....who cares. All I was trying to say is straighten it out just before touchdown.

If I am flying into 28R at SFO, who cares if I cross the numbers at Ref+30. Now if I am going into SMO, I am going to get it slowed up.

I am not watching the amount of bank angle. I am FLYING. Remember, that is what we get paid to do, Fly the airplane.

My brief, "keep us off of headline news".

 

[FLYLOW22]

My brief, "keep us off of headline news".

Unless we are sponsoring another horse race, boat gala or purchase another 1000 airframes anyway...

 

[realityman]

ski....what's wrong with discussing technique on an aviation forum? Obviously, I have ways I'd like to see it done, and others have ways they prefer to do it. We make our cases and others respond. It's called a "discussion".

As for flying the plane, I always thought being aware of speeds and bank angles and such in conditions where they are important was part of flying. Hey, I'm all for seat-of-the-pants flying. Heck, I've got two planes myself that are equipped only for basic VFR. Good fun! And no fancy instrumentation to help me with bank angles and speeds except for my eyeballs and an airspeed indicator that doesn't work very well.

But those aren't the planes I'm flying for work. I don't think anybody stares at the ADI or airspeed indicator through the flare and touchdown, but I have glanced down to find out what the typical deck angles are just prior to touchdown. In the X it can be important. It's nice to know how much bank angle I have to work with. A little knowledge and all that......

And I completely agree with you: straighten the doggone thing out before you touch down!

 

[gunfyter]

Its easy to land the X ... once you get used to it. But initially it made me feel like a new flight student going around the patch for the first time.

Many people find it a challenge at first. Not everyone but many. Its few people who don't get a Red Screen at least once in the sim on the V1 cut.