CE750 at NJA

[Floyd94]

Why is the 800xp the better plane to get? Better schedules, flying, airplane? What are some of the reasons for a potential new hire?

 

[be-400xpdriver]

Pax like the speed. The typical flight ( if there is such a thing) has no more than 3 pax. Very comfortable. I have had 8 pax a few times, it does get a little tight back there.....but doable.

You think that is little tight, try 7 pax in the 400xp or hell even 3 pax is tight. Oh by the way on day 3 of 7. Second day of hot spare with no flying yet. But at least did not miss a playoff game this weekend.

 

[realityman]

I have seen guys land it, lets just say "different than me". Some of the guys "drive it onto the runway" without straightening the nose before landing (using rudder). I like to flare and use the rudder to land with the nose pointed down the runway.

Ski....I've been in the X for over 8.5 years, and what you just described is a real problem. I just finished IOE with a newhire who told me that FlightSafety is teaching to land it in a crab during a crosswind. WTFO?!!!
His first landing on our tour was in a x-wind, and hooboy, that was a wild ride. First, the mains touch down and immediately begin scrubbing as they're dragged partially sideways down the runway. Next the nosewheel follows the mains to the pavement and the vibrations get worse, plus the plane now immediately begins heading in the direction the wheels are pointed, ie. toward the side of the runway. Of course, now our newhire must quickly apply corrective rudder to keep from getting an up-close-and-personal with the runway edge lights. And in the panicked reaction, too much corrective rudder is applied and now we're swerving like a drunken sailor all over the runway. Somewhere in this mess the yaw damper kicks off (it's obviously not needed on the ground, but it takes a hell of a ride to knock that thing offline).

What's wrong with normal x-wind technique? You know, fly it in a crab on final. Straighten it out with rudder in the flare and LOWER THE UPWIND WING, and just set it down on the upwind main first, followed by the other and finally the nose, all the while tracking straight down the runway and increasing aileron into the wind. Basic airmanship.

And I don't want to hear anything about dragging a wingtip in the X. Puh-lease. It's easier to do than in other jets with less wing sweep, but it's not THAT easy to do. I've been using normal x-wind technique in this plane since I started flying it, and have yet to drag a wingtip. I teach everyone I'm instructing to do the same, and have yet to hear of any of them dragging a wingtip. In a normal landing flare you can use 8 or 9 degrees of bank without fear of hitting a wingtip (and that's A LOT of bank), although in all but the strongest x-winds I've never had to use more than a few degrees.

And while we're at it, what's wrong with crossing the numbers at 50 ft., power at idle, and AT REF SPEED!...........

 

[cocknbull]

Ski....I've been in the X for over 8.5 years, and what you just described is a real problem. I just finished IOE with a new hire who told me that Flight Safety is teaching to land it in a crab during a crosswind. WTFO?!!!
His first landing on our tour was in a x-wind, and hooboy, that was a wild ride. First, the mains touch down and immediately begin scrubbing as they're dragged partially sideways down the runway. Next the nosewheel follows the mains to the pavement and the vibrations get worse, plus the plane now immediately begins heading in the direction the wheels are pointed, ie. toward the side of the runway. Of course, now our newhire must quickly apply corrective rudder to keep from getting an up-close-and-personal with the runway edge lights. And in the panicked reaction, too much corrective rudder is applied and now we're swerving like a drunken sailor all over the runway. Somewhere in this mess the yaw damper kicks off (it's obviously not needed on the ground, but it takes a hell of a ride to knock that thing offline).

What's wrong with normal x-wind technique? You know, fly it in a crab on final. Straighten it out with rudder in the flare and LOWER THE UPWIND WING, and just set it down on the upwind main first, followed by the other and finally the nose, all the while tracking straight down the runway and increasing aileron into the wind. Basic airmanship.

And I don't want to hear anything about dragging a wingtip in the X. Puh-lease. It's easier to do than in other jets with less wing sweep, but it's not THAT easy to do. I've been using normal x-wind technique in this plane since I started flying it, and have yet to drag a wingtip. I teach everyone I'm instructing to do the same, and have yet to hear of any of them dragging a wingtip. In a normal landing flare you can use 8 or 9 degrees of bank without fear of hitting a wingtip (and that's A LOT of bank), although in all but the strongest x-winds I've never had to use more than a few degrees.

And while we're at it, what's wrong with crossing the numbers at 50 ft., power at idle, and AT REF SPEED!...........

I'm sorry this post confused me. I have 0 time in a X and you obviously have a ton of time in a ten, so I am not trying to bust your balls. Isn't a crab the same technique that you described as your landing technique or did you mean FSI is teaching them to land with a side load, and then once on the ground correct the load. I know that this technique is used to prevent stalls and ground contact on balked landings in aircraft with swept wings and long spool up times as well as some wing mounted engine aircraft. Like I said, just wanting your input and clarification because of your experience.

 

[realityman]

cocknbull,

A crab is basically just allowing the plane to weathervane into the wind. Think about how a crab walks. So with the nose angled into the wind (say, a crosswind from the right) the plane would maintain a straight track toward the runway.

What you're transitioning into during the flare is forward slip (a side slip would be intentionally angling the nose into the wind using the rudder while lowering the downwind wing, commonly used to lose altitude rapidly in singles). A forward slip is keeping the nose aligned with the plane's intended ground track while preventing drift by lowering the upwind wing (or did I get those slips backwards?). It's been a while since I instructed those things (many many years).

But you're crabbing down final.
Hope that helps.

 

[NJA Capt]

I just finished IOE with a newhire who told me that FlightSafety is teaching to land it in a crab during a crosswind.

Just to play devil's advocate, the AFM does recommend the crab. It also says to allow it to land in a crab.

What's wrong with normal x-wind technique?

The AFM/FSI says: "The airplane should not be flown using the wing-down sideslip technique."

In a normal landing flare you can use 8 or 9 degrees of bank without fear of hitting a wingtip (and that's A LOT of bank).

Per the chart in the AFM....
At a normal landing AOA of 5 degrees you have approx 7 degrees of roll until wing strike.

And while we're at it, what's wrong with crossing the numbers at 50 ft., power at idle, and AT REF SPEED!...........

Nothing.............if you like Carrier landings.

Of course, there is a difference in book/sim procedure and real world technique.

 

[cocknbull]

cocknbull,

A crab is basically just allowing the plane to weathervane into the wind. Think about how a crab walks. So with the nose angled into the wind (say, a crosswind from the right) the plane would maintain a straight track toward the runway.

What you're transitioning into during the flare is forward slip (a side slip would be intentionally angling the nose into the wind using the rudder while lowering the downwind wing, commonly used to lose altitude rapidly in singles). A forward slip is keeping the nose aligned with the plane's intended ground track while preventing drift by lowering the upwind wing (or did I get those slips backwards?). It's been a while since I instructed those things (many many years).

But you're crabbing down final.
Hope that helps.

Thanks, I see the difference crab through landing or crab till 50 feet then throw in the old slip.

Does the technique change with possible wind shear or large gusts, and do you guys have a correction to Vapp according to gust factor?

 

[pdub20s]

lol i know that pulling the power back at 50ft in a "semenhole" will slam that sht to the ground

 

[FLYLOW22]

From my time in the X (3 years).

Yes the AFM says you can strike a wingtip with 5-7 degrees of bank during landing... with 10 pitch up. Normal deck angle for landing is nowhere near 10 dgrees pitch up. It's around 4-5 degrees. Add another few kts on apprach and over the fence (where it makes sense to have that luxury) and you have a nice stable approach with a lower deck angle (taking up a few hundred of extra feet).

To me, the above when not approaching a runway less than 5,500 feet was well within acceptable and confortable limits as opposed to dorking the runway down crooked in a gale crosswind on a contaminated runway at LGA at night just so I could forget to deploy the groundspoilers (manual) or land just plaiun hard, bouce up in the air and slam down hard, thereby creating a greater risk of wingtip strike in that now the rig is completely flying like a retarded emu.

Watch your deck angle and save the dork landings for SMO... that is the only place you will need them.

Try the dork method in SFO landing 28R and watch how fast the tower yells at you for holding up departures on 1L/1R.

 

[realityman]

NJACapt......Sorry, sometimes when making a point certain important details get left out, such as what the AFM actually recommends. Yes, I'm familiar with what's in the AFM. However, applying the recommended landing technique in a crosswind is a hairy ride. And I'll stick by my assertion that it's hard on the landing gear, as well as the pax and flight crew.

I've also made it a point to check the deck angle during the normal flair and touchdown. If you cross the numbers at REF, and don't keep holding it off forever trying for that perfect greaser, you'll touch down with a typical deck angle of between 5 and 7 degrees. At those deck angles you're perfectly safe with 8 degrees of bank, but as I mentioned before that is a very large amount of bank (right next to the ground) and rarely requires more than a couple degrees of bank for most crosswind conditions. And if it's a gusty crosswind, you'll be holding REF + a few knots, therby giving you an even shallower deck angle and therefore more leeway with lowering the upwind wing.

As for REF speed across the numbers with non-gusty winds, it works very well in this plane. Sorry, it's not a Seminole and bringing the power levers to idle will not cause it to suddenly drop or slam into the ground. In fact, generally speaking, in ground effect this thing likes to float. As for extra speed just for comfort, why? Oh sure, it's more stable and handles better at REF + 10, but it does even better at REF + 100. That doesn't make it the right speed to land at. I really don't care what the controllers at SFO say (BTW, never been yelled at by anyone for landing at the right speed), who's supposed to be flying this thing, the pilots or the controllers? Why is it a big deal to me? Because it forms bad habits. What I see A LOT of, is people always crossing the numbers at REF + 10 (or more!), which is all very well and good for those comfortable long runways, but when they are approaching a relatively short runway, they haven't practiced the right power settings for flying at REF across the numbers, nor are they ready for the slight decrease in roll control and tend to overcontrol the plane low to the ground (now I get worried about those wing strikes).
Landing at REF speed doesn't make for a carrier landing. I didn't say you had to jump on the brakes hard after touchdown. In fact, landing at REF speed means less need for extra braking and therefore less wear and tear on the plane, pax, and pilots.

Anyway, fly it however you like. I'll continue to teach it the best way I know how.