CE-650 vs. 800XP

[SheGaveMeClap]

Our company is talking about a mid-sized cabin, and considering the Citation 7 or the 800XP. We have an Ultra now, and they want to keep in the Citation family. I think that's closed-minded.

I've heard the 7 is a mx pig. I know alot of guys that fly 800XPs and they don't have as many mx problems. The 7 is alot faster, but how's the range? It seems the XP has a better range, but doesn't have the speed.

The airplane would probably fly between 350 and 450 hours per year. The guys I know that fly the XP fly them quite a bit more than we would, and they seem to hold up better.

It seems the XP is a better coast-to-coast airplane. I know it's only coast-to-coast some (or most) of the time. A Falcon 50 would be better, but I don't think that'll happen.

Any comments on either airplane? The good, bad and ugly? Thanks alot....

Clap

 

[banned username 2]

I think the 800XP has a substantial range advantage over the Citation VII... I think I would go with the Hawker myself, I have never flown one, but I have flown a Citation III and it wasn't overly impressive...

 

[Rick1128]

Keeping in mind I have not flown a C7, my thought are the 800 is much more aircraft for the buck. Much better runway performance. Rugged airframe. Big comfortable cabin. Negative for the 800: TKS, MX schedule that can be a little intense if you are not perpared for it. If I remember right the C7 still has that hump in the aisle about 3/4's of the way back. And everyone I have talked with who would have knowledge of the both airframes tells me that the C7 airframe is kind of rinky-dink compared to the 800.

 

[400A]

Both are good machines. when I researched the two, a similarly equipped XP in the same year vintage will go a couple mil. more. (unless that has changed) DOC will be less on the Cessna. If the surveys are true product support will be better on the 7 as well. Baggage is much better in the 7, but cabin is better in the hawker. Cockpit is MUCH bigger in the hawker. The 7 has more altitude capability, but the hawker has more range. It just depends on your budget / range profile. To the best of my knowledge both aircraft can do seats full tanks full, but the hawker needs more runway. Most of the guys I know running hawkers like to have a staff mechanic. Both aircraft fly very well from what I hear.

Net Jets will be flooding the market with 7's soon, so I would keep that in mind for resale value.

 

[miles otoole]

Are you considering new or used? The 50 might be worth a look as well as the 60 (both faster). I agree with the comments regarding the VII- long in the tooth and will drop in value like a ton of bricks soon.

 

[HMR]

How about an Astra? It'll beat both planes coast to coast. Lots of luggage room. Built like a tank. You can get an early 90's vintage relatively cheap. It has a smaller cabin than the Hawker (can't remember cabin specs on the 7) but how often will you be filling the seats?

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

Keep in mind SE climb performance when you look at runway numbers also.

I've talked to Hawker guys who tell me that 1 engine climb is nearly nonexistent unless close to empty...........pay close attention to this if you plan on doing any 135 flying (not sure if you are).

Don't know about the 7.....have you considered a soveriegn or excel?

 

[hawkerjet]

from a charter sales prospective their is No comparison between the 7 and the 800xp. call around to any broker or sales rep and they can tell you the hawker sells. people recognize the name and product. i am not saying one is better than the other, but the hawker will clearly outsell the 7 in charter sales. it reminded me of the turbo prop sales competition between the merlin III and king air 200. the merlin is roomier and cheaper to operate but all people recognize in the sales department is king air, no matter how much you extolled the vitues of the merlin III. And as far as flooding the market with their 7's, doesn't net jets only have 15 of them? Buy the hawker.

 

[hawkerjet]

sorry clapster, i realized this was a corporate thread and not a 135 thread, Dooooh! I would still buy the Hawker, we ran 3 of them for a part 91 company and had a great dispatch rate.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

That's why I asked in the Corporate board, because you guys are running them and know what they can and cannot do.

We are a 135 company. The boss wants a mid, and it seems to me like the Hawker will sell trips better than a VII.

You all have confirmed what I've thought all along. The cabin and range are much better in the 800XP than a VII. When pax climb aboard, they don't care they are flying .83 versus .79. They want to make the trip non-stop. Baggage isn't a huge issue, our pax are used to flying on the Ultra and don't carry much as it is. If they want to carry more, they'll usually ship it beforehand anyway. They are very considerate (I'm sure we'll be jinxed now). The regulars know the Hawker name, and it will probably help sell the airplane.

Thanks for the input....

Clap

 

[CapnVegetto]

Got a little time in the CE-650, and I think it's a POS. It's a terrible runway hog, not overly impressive in the climb, and if you lose an engine, you'd better have an interstate in front of you. Don't know much about the Hawker, but the only thing I've ever heard guys gripe about is the slow speed. The CE-650 will outrun the heck out of it, (it's about an .82-83 airplane), but I think the Hawker is probably better overall, though.

 

[Rick1128]

Many 135 operators use Hawkers for the same reasons that they used Lear 20's. In my opinion the Hawker is the Lear 25 of the Mid cabin class. If it starts, you're going. In other words, it tends to be quite reliable. I operated a 600 fan for two years with No on-staff maintenance with dispatch reliability in the upper 90 percentile.

As for speed. At first our people kept calling it too slow. But over a six month period they all wanted it instead of our Lear 25. For us it was what my boss called a 9 minute airplane. For every hour a trip took in the Lear, the Hawker took 1 hour 9 minutes.

While they both use almost the same amount of runway for takeoff, the Hawker uses much less for landing. And for 135, the landing distance is what hurts you the most. Neither of them can match a Lear 25 in the single engine department. The both are quite close there also.

What it really comes down to is what the boss wants. He's the one who is sign the check. All you can do is find out what the facts are and mske suggestions.

Good luck.

 

[some_dude]

The Astra cabin is just too narrow, no matter how many (or few) people you have in it. And, let's get G100Driver over here to discuss dispatch reliability!

I have never flown either a C-VII or a Hawker. We did some comparisons for my last employer, before they decided they didn't need any airplane, and the Hawker generally came out as the better choice. I don't recall the specifics, though.

How about an Astra? It'll beat both planes coast to coast. Lots of luggage room. Built like a tank. You can get an early 90's vintage relatively cheap. It has a smaller cabin than the Hawker (can't remember cabin specs on the 7) but how often will you be filling the seats?

 

[HMR]

The Astra cabin is just too narrow, no matter how many (or few) people you have in it.

All right... you got me on that one. If you're hauling around a bunch of Krispy-Kreme munchin' lardwagons, the Hawker is a better fit.

PS- If anyone's looking for a real sweet Astra; I just happen to know a PT91 dept that's getting ready to sell theirs.

 

[FracCapt]

Baggage isn't a huge issue, our pax are used to flying on the Ultra and don't carry much as it is. If they want to carry more, they'll usually ship it beforehand anyway. They are very considerate (I'm sure we'll be jinxed now).

The baggage area is the only sore spot I have run into with people that are used to flying a Citation(III, VI, or VII). Also, something to think about.....baggage space can vary greatly on Hawkers based on how the airplane was delivered. The forward area is the same, but there are 2(sometimes only 1) aft "crew baggage" areas that may not be heavily used(by crew) for guys that fly day trips or spend just a couple days on the road at a time. Other than that, the Hawker 800XP has much better range, albeit a bit slower. Most XP's will do .78 or better all day long....as long as you don't climb immediately to max altitude for weight/conditions. Step climb it. That's what they like. I typically climb to 360 or 370 immediately even if I takeoff at MGTOW, and within a couple minutes accelerate to .78(sorry, I meant .75 - company policy ) then pull the power back.

Just don't even think about doing Hawaii trips in the XP.....if you want some info on that, look for the thread "Hawker to Hawaii"...